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Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so.

45 replies on 4 pages. Most recent reply: Apr 2, 2008 6:25 PM by Axcell Van

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Frank Sommers

Posts: 2642
Nickname: fsommers
Registered: Jan, 2002

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 21, 2003 4:50 AM
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When you build a business, you're going to invest a good part of your own life, sweat, blood, money, etc., into it. You work long hours, you're never sure of what new development tomorrow will render today's work useless, you're taking a risk the rest of the population would be scared to death to even think of.

If you then decide to hire an Albert Einstein to help you with your physics problems, if you can afford to, or a Srinivasa Ramanujan to help out with your math puzzles, or an Alan Turing to help you write some code, or a Dr. von Neumann to build some hardware -- what gives the right to our government to sanction whether you are allowed to spend your hard-earned money to hire these gentlemen? You do not ask the government's permission to use your pencil or your tootbrush - you use these items not by permission, but by right, because they're yours. It's a sorry state of affairs in the protection of property ownership that our present laws require the federal government's permission when entering into employment contracts with others from different countries. Our tootbrush is more truly ours than our business, yet we invest much more of ourselves into our business.

Our government's restriction on our ability to hire whoever we wish, infringes upon the liberty of American citizens as much as it restricts the freedoms of non-US nationals. Stronger protections for the rights to property of US citizens, including the right to own a business, would result from diminishing federal regulatory power over the granting of work permits to foreign workers.

Maurizio Turatti

Posts: 12
Nickname: mkj6
Registered: Jun, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 21, 2003 5:48 AM
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I am Italian, so I'd need a visa to work in the US, but I have to agree with Sue. Developing software is an intellectual activity based on communication, and it could be difficult to communicate effectively if there is a big cultural distance, it is not only a matter of being skilled or not. But, in my opinion, the real problem of the whole IT job marketplace today is the "bottom noise". I mean, how do we think we can hire a decent professional if we are only able to fill up job offerings with a long list of insipid, conflicting buzzwords? Second: is it ethical to compete with someone in the far east that is going to work like a slave all day long because in his country there are no laws in protection of workers?

James Patterson

Posts: 16
Nickname: jmep
Registered: Mar, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 22, 2003 8:52 AM
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Sue, I met you once in Dallas (JavaMUG) and I strongly agree with your stance. Mr. Shetty et. al., although you are trying to intellectually/rationally argue your point, ultimately no one cares. On an individual level, irregardless of nationality, if you have your job taken away because someone else can do it cheaper, it hurts. This is not a question of who can do it better. From the heights of upper management all that matters is the almighty $ (€, ¥, or whatever). Even then the point of view is only the immediate future.

Aryan

Posts: 4
Nickname: indianguy
Registered: Aug, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 23, 2003 12:55 AM
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Hi Sue,

Thank God, I am NOT a java developer and never read any of of your books...You are such a confused person.

>I think these visas should be abolished until all of the unemployed and laid-off IT workers and engineers who are US citizens are back on a payroll.

On your website I found

Most of our projects are done on a telecommuting basis, with engineers located in the US and Canada.
[Source: http://switchbacksoftware.com/aboutus.htm]

Are Canadians US citizen?

Alex Peake

Posts: 13
Nickname: alexpeake
Registered: Jul, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 23, 2003 7:49 PM
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IMHO we live in a global economy so we had better get used to it. If someone in India or Russia or China can offer a better Return On Investment, then they will win. And we have seen that artificial barriers are only temporary patches.

The sky, however, is not falling! Return On Investment is a mutli-faceted thing. Cost is not the only issue. Sure, there are going to be some kinds of software that can best be produced outside the US, but some will best be produced on site, because of better communications with the users. Some specialty kinds of software will have more experts in the US.

If you are a developer, then focus on building your skills above the average. Specialize. Become expert in a domain or security or distributed computing or code generation or ...

Raynil S. K.

Posts: 1
Nickname: raynilk
Registered: Aug, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 23, 2003 11:52 PM
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Bill, please don't entertain such racist, protectionist
blogs on artima.com, enticing readers to approach Senators
and the US Government is not what artima.com should provide
real estate for...I have great respect for you Bill and
artima.com 'n I take that around with me as an architect,
I don't want that to change. The original author of this
posting is apparently more emotional than logical about her
views, am glad I haven't read nor heard of the author in
the decades I've spent in the software industry.

Thanks Bill for your wonderful contribution to the software
community through artima.com

AJ

Posts: 6
Nickname: jharkhandi
Registered: Aug, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 24, 2003 3:22 PM
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Hi Sue,

I was trying to hold back my comments - but it seemed futile.

Do you know people like you with attitude problems will never get a job in Indian company. In India - we never carry people with foul notion based on nationality.

To me you sound lunatic and racist.

Time will tell you the truth which people are trying to tell you right now.

I think the time lost in communication is due to your lack of communication - as it is reflected in your article - everything from outsourcing to H1 is covered and bottom line is begging for respite, which is never mentioned. There is no such thing as free lunch in capitalism.

If Canada can be forced to use Idaho products, so can USA too. Remember the reality - you have no friends in this world(due to people like you.) and that you depend on India for IT.

By the way did you ask your publishers not to sell books at a lower price in India? Do you know the amount of money that successful writers for IT books get mostly comes from India? You should stop purchasing books from WROX, O'Reilly and likes - they sell books at lower prices and create competition for you. By the way, if they sell it on original price, Indian version of Sue will be happy to keep check on all the money going out of India - we will anyway write books for ourself and that industry will grow - which is struggling right now.

Do you tear off pages of books that are written by Indian writers for American Publishers? I have seen lots of books in Java carrying Indian names published by American publishers. They are making money which some American would have done. Right?

Well before closing my comment - do you know why did Symantec outsource product porting to India (For AS400 and Solaris)? Lack of expertise locally in USA. Lost of other success stories are in vault for you. And as someone wisely mentioned the name - I hope you will take a note of it too.

P.S. Thanks a lot for writing so many books on JAVA. Try to write a write one run everywhere version of Mein Kemph.

AJ

Posts: 6
Nickname: jharkhandi
Registered: Aug, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 24, 2003 3:25 PM
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Hi Sue,

Removing the page mentioned by Aryan shows your oppurtunist mentality. I have no doubts you will follow rest - given a chance.

iftekhar

Posts: 2
Nickname: mmi
Registered: Aug, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 25, 2003 1:31 AM
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I could not resist myself in posting in this discussion. I am an Indian (PR in USA) working in for one of the best healthcare companies here. Outsourcing does not seem to be in near sight in this company but who knows, it may come in future. I am an engineer and product of one of the elite technical institutes of India. I used to earn around $ 150-200 per month ( i.e. 6.000-10,000 in Indian currency) 5 years back, which used to full fill basic needs of my life.
Now I am earning around $100,000-135,000/yr in USA and it is much more than my American colleagues in my company.
The above was just a background to emphasize my views.
1) In a democratic country, people decide what is good for them. So if people think that no foreigners should be in the country then I think that there is nothing wrong. It is similar to the fact that we do not want any Nepali, Bangladeshi, bhutani or any fourth world country folks come and settle in India. People in USA are much better in treating foreigners, may be because of the fact that most of the people were foreigners at some point in time.
2)I have read many articles and heard that outsourcing saves cost by 20-30%. To me it seems the biggest scam of the century. I do not understand why people, who are against outsourcing are not bringing this to forefront. An experienced US IT employee costs around 100-150K/yr and if one compares to same quality IT manpower in third world country who gets around 10K/yr, there is a saving of more than 90%. So where is the rest of the money going? In the pockets of CEO's,CIO's,CFO's & the outsourcing companies. I am amazed to find that no one ever mentions this fact when calculating savings from outsourcing.
All these result in zero or -ve gain for the US company who has outsourced its works. (also I agree with many of the reasons given by Sue)
3)People who talk of global economy, I want to laugh at them at their hypocrisy , every one's views are biased towards self gain. How would it sound if I ask you to allow starving population of Africa to come to developing countries such as India, China, etc. to work and get atleast food once or twice a day????? No you will not allow it? Will it not be good in the name of global economy to allow any one to go anywhere to do work, which will lead to chaos to the whole world and put people of developed countries who have worked hard to achieve a certain standards of living by their sacrifices and hard work, under unnecessary stress and discomfort?
If the citizens of this country make a law that all non-citizens should go back, I will not feel bad but when I become a citizen, I will support any law which makes life of the citizens better.

Aryan

Posts: 4
Nickname: indianguy
Registered: Aug, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 25, 2003 1:33 AM
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Just a clarification here Ajay, The page is still there. I think it is not showing up because "]" is added to the URL.

Here is the correct link.

http://switchbacksoftware.com/aboutus.htm

Sue, I hope realize your mistake and accept the truth.

Truth is always bitter but if you want to avoid the bitterness of the truth, Accept it!

Aryan

Posts: 4
Nickname: indianguy
Registered: Aug, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 25, 2003 2:41 AM
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Mr Iftekhar,

In my company we are outsourcing a project to India for 5K USD, which was quoted by US companies to cost us atleast 25K. So in our case the money is with the company. It is not leaving its place to go into anyone else's pocket.

Is this difficult to understand? Its plain logic, no scam.

Greg Hagen

Posts: 1
Nickname: foofighter
Registered: Aug, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 25, 2003 2:24 PM
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And let's mention that outsourcing especially offshore is terrible for intellectual property protection. Other countries have different kinds of checks and balances, and different ethical systems. No prejudice there, that's reality and there's nothing basically wrong with that. But that's reality. Some big US corporations are unwillingly nurturing their next foreign competitors that way.

Also think about all the software that goes in the US defense equipment, where do you want this software developped? Think about it, when your kids will risk their lives abroad. But it might already be too late to think about that.

AJ

Posts: 6
Nickname: jharkhandi
Registered: Aug, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 26, 2003 4:11 PM
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Iftekhar

I am not sure how long you have been in India. But sure enough - you have little knowledge of India. In India - I have not seen people being discriminated the way you are trying to explain. How many qualified people are coming to India from countries mentioned by you? And how many are just petty criminals sneaking in India in middle of night?

I guess you are more confused then Sue. We are talking about qualified people here and not about criminals and illegal immigrants. Your quest of mixing the points is interesting though.

And about global economy - it is commitment from both sides. USA asked for commitment from India by pressurizing times and again in 70s and 80s. And in 90s we opened out economy - now USA cannot back out after pushing its own companies there. If we pressurize any African nations - surely we will have to keep our markets open for them - in terms of manpower, products or whatever.

You seem to be a great Bangladesh fan. Let me tell you - we have allowed Bangladesh more then immigration - we lend them Teen Bigha - almost close to cost of our security. I don't think progressive Bangladeshis are ever refused entry in India - just name a few - Runa Laila, Tasleema Nasreen. In reply we got our soldiers killed by Bangladesh Rifles - the country which came out of suppression and got freedom due to us. Can we be more kind?

Please read it again - we are not asking USA to open doors for criminals like Abu Salem.

Nepal is getting subsidy from Indian ports on imports - which country ever allows it to happen? Bhutan's 90% trade is with India. Who told you nice people from these countries are not allowed to work in India? They are not Ph.D.s but they earn their bread peacefully and not one stops them.

Indeed you can laugh at hypocrisy - you are free to do so. I am happy that you left India - you were a misfit there. However I am ashamed that our education could not kill the political baiter inside you. And of course I laugh at your hypocrisy of dreaming a citizenship. If you support the idea of closed economy prove it to me by taking a flight home. See how much tax payers invested for your education in one of elite technical institutes on India - you owe them too. But alas you will not - because you have a wonderful idea of opportunistic life. This will not help you being a good American either.

Correct me if I am wrong - how many students from other countries could get their degrees cleared from your institute? How many countries utilize what India offers them - free education - scholarship and what not??? Every country has its own virtues and USA is good in one way - India in another. By criticizing India - you never make a point. As pointed out correctly by Indian Deputy Prime Minister Lal Krishan Advani - India and USA are twin towers of democracy attacked by terrorism. I say twin tower in many other way too and this twin tower is not going to be destroyed.

People have sense of humor - you sense is a humor in itself. You think you and Sue own USA - unfortunately not. In fact your coming up and writing here makes me understand much better how people like you and Sue - are reasons for more openness and nice exchanges between societies.

P.S. If I got you right - there are more then 2500 student per year in elite institute of India - the other one may also be from same place, but I find it irrelevant to point out - not cause I don't take pride - just that it is irrelevant here.

Sincere apologies to others for being deviated - I am being dragged into political side.

iftekhar

Posts: 2
Nickname: mmi
Registered: Aug, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 27, 2003 1:38 AM
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I apologize to the others for wasting the space in responding To Mr Ajay's unprofessional and much diverted comments, because I think that these threads should not be used for these types of remarks.
Nowhere in my postI have mentioned anything bad about India or any other country. I had just mentioned the plain facts of life. I have spent 30 years of my life there i.e. I was born and raised there and I am proud to be an Indian. I believe in that whatever country one is citizen, one should be loyal/patriotic to one's country but at the same time, one should not act hastely in any issue without knowing all facts.
I think you missed my point. My point is that a country (i.e. government & people) decide whom they want to let them in based on certain criterions. In your concept of global economy any one should be allowed to go and work any where (please remember, we are not talking here of crimnals or anti social elements). I am talking here of any one, whether he is a Ph.D or has just a high school education. My point is that would Indian government or any third world country open its door freely for those countries where people are starving, but if they come to India or third world country, their life will get improve much. But it will make the India's Labor market even cheaper because of so much additional inflow. All humans are equal and based on global theory people should be able to go and work at a better place. But alas the world does not work that way. Every country takes care of interests.
I do not know whether you are in India or not but the measures that one supports is based on one's perception. If I was living & working in India, then ceratinly I would have supported it, because the view differs when you see things from differant angles.

AJ

Posts: 6
Nickname: jharkhandi
Registered: Aug, 2003

Re: Outsourcing in my company? I don't think so. Posted: Aug 27, 2003 10:05 AM
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Iftekhar,

I have not doubts about your tryst of getting things political. Apology is a veil for your expressions. If you are truly democratic - you should have no problem in being pluralistic. If you are true - you should have no problems accepting truth either. Also I am unable to grasp what type of remark are you talking about - perhaps you are trying to correct your remarks which are clear digression from the topic. Never mind.

Yes you did not mention bad about India - nor did I say so (that you said). Plain facts of life go as follows: India should not close ports to Nepal. India should not close water to Pakistan. They are economic reasons. Incorrect partially - they should not get involved in Anti-India stance. If there is a commitment by India to any country - it has to be followed.

People who support abolishing H1B and outsourcing are the ones who tell us times and again - we are commodity and nothing more. They cannot do so - our lives are as important as theirs and opening of Indian economy was American call. Parallel would be - asking Nepali citizens to leave India - cause we are done with their utility and that people must get jobs who are born in India - no dude that is fake. You cannot ask people from Nepal to leave India overnight - you have a commitment towards them too. We have higher unemployment then USA but still no government has done it and I can tell you I will be first to stand against them if they do so.

It is difficult for me to have an idea of right wing nationality and stay in another country as PR.

Let me repeat H1B filters qualified people from a society and hence in this thread - we are definitely talking about qualified people.

If Indian government presses other nations to open doors for economy - they have to open doors for visa workers too. Can you tell me any country which was pressurized Government of India to open doors for Indian market? I do not criticize Japanese government either - they also have a closed door policy - please understand Japanese companies working in other parts of world is due to company's efforts and not due to Japanese Government pressurizing them.

If staying in any place matters for opinion - then I would say it is unframed thought and not idea - let it sink inside you before you decide to comment on my "unprofessional and much diverted coments". I would like to hear a strong argument from your side too. By the way I have worked in India, Europe and USA. Currently I am in USA only. I have worked in Southern states too and moved back to NY for my love of city - city that never sleeps - city that doesn't differentiate. Surely I have worked in more places in USA then you would have.

Hey let me ask - how many times have you donated blood for Americans? How many Americans did it after 9/11? Only one who did it stands a chance (perhaps emotionally) to charge on me. Rest all of you - you owe me blood. How many of you perhaps ever visited a Afro-American/Latino American neighborhood and how many tried to put in more then just plain money to be donated to for cause of children? So instead of taking emotional hiding - come up with your arguments and I will take your arguments correctly. Look - if you have emotional hiding - at least I am giving you emotional truth to blank out your utterance - I am still acting better.

Iftekhar - I would not have loved to comment on those lines - but anyway you have made thread look ugly and I cannot make it any worse. Double congrats - once for believing you own USA and second you own the thread (sic - you should have claimed internet man.)

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