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Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come

117 replies on 8 pages. Most recent reply: Jun 15, 2007 5:29 AM by Ian Ozsvald

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Flat View: This topic has 117 replies on 8 pages [ « | 1 ... 5 6 7 8 ]
Tharaka Abeywickrama

Posts: 5
Nickname: tharaka
Registered: Feb, 2006

About Jython, why not JPype? Posted: Mar 11, 2006 12:04 AM
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Speaking of Jython, instead of re-implementing Python on Java, why not look at integrating CPython with the JVM, as done in JPype (http://jpype.sourceforge.net/) ?

Personally, I think maintaining two implementations is a pain; one will always fall behind. JPype seems to have the right idea. Although the last time I checked it out it was a bit crashy. It also has a few limitations compared to Jython. For example, it cannot inherit a Python class from a Java class. It can only implement Java interfaces. But I these issues are relatively easy to resolve, especially if the PSF gets involved.

Because lets face it, the amount of libraries, APIs and frameworks that are available on Java is just HUGE. And to be able to use them from Python easily is a huge bonus. And it will attract the people who are afraid to move to Python because they are afraid of missing their favorite Java framework/API.

It can be argued that most Java APIs have substitutions in Python. But for the experienced Java developer, IT IS NOT THE SAME THING. The abstractions are different, the concepts are different, and the Python version could be missing some features. They would have the overhead of learning the new system that would atleast make them unproductive for a while. An example is Swing. Python has its own GUI frameworks but they are NOT Swing. For a Swing pro who knows to do magic with it, its never the same.

Therefore Java/Python integration is the key in attracting these people.

Lutz Pälike

Posts: 2
Nickname: tremolo
Registered: Mar, 2006

Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Posted: Mar 11, 2006 5:31 PM
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My flatmate is working with Ruby on Rails and today he showed me his new Ruby T-Shirt. It looks quite cool i think. see: http://www.cafepress.com/speedmetalruby.27350877

There are also some other in the ruby collection:
http://www.rubystuff.com/shirts.html

I liked also the ones with "Java Rehabilitation Clinic" on it but when i saw there is also "Python Rehabilitation Clinic" i wondered what kind of python symptoms need to be treated by using ruby? Is fun one of these symptoms ? ;)

A quick search for python in the t-shirt webshop delivered rather lame results by the way ...
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/search/search.aspx?source=searchBox&q=python&cfpt2=&copt=&cfpt=&x=0&y=0

Bruce Eckel

Posts: 875
Nickname: beckel
Registered: Jun, 2003

Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Posted: Mar 17, 2006 3:58 PM
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Here's an idea:
http://www.firefoxflicks.com/adcontest/
I assumed it was out of our league, but first prize is a 5K gift certificate to a video equipment supplier.

Chris Hart

Posts: 4
Nickname: chart
Registered: Mar, 2006

Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Posted: Mar 25, 2006 7:12 AM
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Shhh...don't tell anybody about Python. It's our competitive advantage.

What's the goal of evangelizing Python anyway? So we have a neat clubhouse where we can play with our friends? So we make oodles and oodles of money? So we get respect from Perl and Java developers? So we encounter less resistance or no resistance to using Python professionally?

Python is a mainstream language, and for a language with no big business organization behind it, it has done pretty darn well. Lots of people find it useful for all kinds of programming tasks. There is a big community, some large companies and organizations use it, and plenty of authors are around of good books and articles and blogs. What more could we want?

Are we afraid of RoR and Ajax stealing our thunder? Of them taking away our key people? Of them making it impossible for us to code in Python? Afraid we'll like them better? Afraid of us becoming closet Ruby and JavaScript developers? How about we take their best ideas and fold them into Python instead?

Petr Mares

Posts: 5
Nickname: dramenbejs
Registered: Feb, 2006

Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Posted: Mar 26, 2006 2:12 PM
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Thanks a lot for comments Mr. Hart, it's inspiring!

What can we get out of marketing?

* Bigger user base, it brings (in respect to python lang):
- more 3rd party modules
- greater pressure to bring new language features
- more massive testing (more people test more :)
- lesser competitive advantage over other people
* Bigger credibility of python language among managers -- remember that many IT managers don't know about language other than Java & C# :)
* It could boost growth of companies providing comercial support for the language -- because it will be more profitable.

* Lesser paycheck :(. More python programmers in the public will drop the price of python programmer on the job market.
OR
* Bigger paycheck :) if the marketing will be targeted on IT managers, not on creating more python programmers :)))

Sorry for the english, try to understand me :)

John Sirbu

Posts: 5
Nickname: silverleaf
Registered: Mar, 2006

Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Posted: Mar 27, 2006 9:17 AM
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@ Chris Hart

Are we afraid of RoR and Ajax stealing our thunder?

The fact we work with a snake means we are pretty fearless individuals. ;P So it's not fear, it is more a general attitude of rebuke toward the R language. The "Lightning" (e.g. Zen and Power) will always stay the same, "Thunder" (e.g. Adoption and "Branding") is just as important I believe.

There a pages arguments constantly talking about how "the best doesn't win, the mediocre is rewarded", classic VHS versus Betamax argument. Redundant question here... if you invest in a technology wouldn't you have wanted your investment to be supported?

I believe it is similar with any "new" technology or idea. With Python, we've have invested our time to improve and expand the language. It's power and simplicity is unparallel, and it is widely know that much of the R language/code implementation is based on Python (as of late much of the R community wish to say it is based on Perl).

Subconcious fear? No. Subconcious disdain? Maybe.

Of them making it impossible for us to code in Python?

Hobbists can code in any language however most will agree that their favorite tools are perferable to use rather then the ones that they HAVE to use.

Afraid we'll like them better?

Doubtful. Anyone who has had experiences with evangalists showing up at their front door handing out pamphlets, will concur. The "pushers" are very nice, nicest people around in fact. Yet, something about their mindset and pushy nature make them universaly rejected.

Granted the risk of becoming what you dispise is valid however in a community such as ours momentum is vital to our survival.

"Afraid of us becoming closet Ruby and JavaScript developers?"

There is a difference I would think between choosing a path and being forced down that path. Once again, Adoption, "Branding" and investment comes into play...

How about we take their best ideas and fold them into Python instead?

(Google->"History of Computer Languages")

Again, it is widely know that much of the R language/code implementation is based on Python (and again as of late much of the R community are starting say it is based on Perl).

The Japanese have an expression about what is valuable. "People need to put value on the nut not the flower..." I guess the analogy is about how the flower is ephemeral and the nut is real.

Rails is the only widely known "package" the rubbers have for the language at this time. And to go even further it is not even an "application" since it is a framework.

The great ideas were already put to good used in Python. Bittorrent, Inkscape, OGRE, BitPim, Fast Artificial Neural Network Library are some of the already developed and mature applications using Python.

4930 packages in Sourceforge using Python...

457 packages in Sourceforge using Ruby...

Ruby is only 2/3 years younger then Python, and it remained a language for tinkers (as reflected by it sparse offerings) yet it's mass push behind it's adoption due to one single framework makes no sense.

"What's the goal of evangelizing Python anyway?"

Recognition, elavation, and adoption of a language that deserves it.

-John

Basem Narmok

Posts: 2
Nickname: narm
Registered: Aug, 2005

Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Posted: Apr 12, 2006 7:45 PM
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I think it is the time to have a *Python Programming Certification*? say foundation, and advanced levels, certification is a very good marketing tool, also if managed will it could generate a reasonable profit for the PSF!

We have PHP, Oracle, Microsoft, and many more development certifications, so why don't we have a Python one! maybe this will open the door to teach Python more and more in the universities.

I think the industry today needs a Python Certification!

Kondwani Mkandawire

Posts: 530
Nickname: spike
Registered: Aug, 2004

Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Posted: Apr 13, 2006 5:54 AM
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Chris Hart says:
> Python is a mainstream language, and for a language with
> no big business organization behind it, it has done pretty
> darn well.

I wouldn't exactly call Google a small business. Go through
the first blog Guido posted when he first got hired by
Google, he pointed out that it was the 3rd most used language
after C++ and Java. Or by claiming:

"with no big business organization behind it",

do you mean with no big business that dedicates all its
resources to it?

I don't think even the software giant M$ dedicates all its
resources to one language.

Guido van van Rossum

Posts: 359
Nickname: guido
Registered: Apr, 2003

Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Posted: Apr 13, 2006 6:00 AM
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> Chris Hart says:
> > Python is a mainstream language, and for a language with
> > no big business organization behind it, it has done pretty
> > darn well.

Kondwani Mkandawire replies:
> I wouldn't exactly call Google a small business.

Google doesn't promote Python. It doesn't spend marketing money on Python. Yes, it pays my salary when I work on Python; but Google gets things in return (such as its name mentioned here :-) that are more valuable to it than promoting Python. So Chris's assertion stands; Python continues to move ahead without big business behind it.

Kondwani Mkandawire

Posts: 530
Nickname: spike
Registered: Aug, 2004

Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Posted: Apr 13, 2006 6:23 AM
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To me all this sounds like semantics. Quote:

"Python is a mainstream language, and for a language
> with
> > > no big business organization *behind it*,"

>
> Kondwani Mkandawire replies:
> > I wouldn't exactly call Google a small business.
>
"Google doesn't promote Python. It doesn't spend marketing
money on Python."

Good enough but Google at the moment is still humongous
and I guess different people would regard having an
entity "behind them" in different ways.

Yes, it pays my salary when I work on
> Python;

IMHO, that is promotion in itself. They are paying you
to work with and on your language (my apologies if I
misunderstand your situation).

> but Google gets things in return (such as its name
> mentioned here :-)

I'm sure short of Java, every other company that backs
a language, gets something in return.

> that are more valuable to it than
> promoting Python. So Chris's assertion stands; Python
> continues to move ahead without big business behind it.

Beg to differ on that part.

Have used python though for a language without as much backing I think it rocks - was a brilliant contribution
to the software community.

Robert Wilkins

Posts: 1
Nickname: datahelper
Registered: Sep, 2006

Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Posted: Sep 30, 2006 9:21 PM
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Hey guys,

If anyone wants to try out a new data crunching programming language, you can find a Linux-compatible copy at

www.my.opera.com/datahelper

For crunching messy and complicated data, and for doing complex data transformations, this new stuff has significant advantages over SQL SELECT, SPSS, and SAS.


Robert

Michael Mason

Posts: 1
Nickname: masonranch
Registered: Dec, 2006

Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come Posted: Dec 23, 2006 11:05 AM
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Urgently Looking for Josh Gilbert and Mingo. Contact masonranch@aol.com ASAP please

Ian Ozsvald

Posts: 1
Nickname: ianozsvald
Registered: Jun, 2007

Re: go mobile Posted: Jun 15, 2007 5:29 AM
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I'll back up Stephan (of Wingware) on this - the Python wiki has a great page on Python IDEs:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
with 3 recent summary reviews linked at the top (note: 2 of them are mine written on ShowMeDo.com).

If you want to see the IDEs in action then there are videos in ShowMeDo for Wing, SPE, IPython and PyDev - each video makes it clear that the IDEs compare well to the IDEs in other languages. I moved from Visual C++ and IDEA into the Python world years ago and have never looked back.

Ian.

> This is a good example of how the Python community shoots
> itself in the foot. Have you actually tried the current
> crop of IDEs?
>

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