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Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java?

34 replies on 3 pages. Most recent reply: Feb 6, 2009 6:30 PM by Ray McDermott

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Jiri Goddard

Posts: 54
Nickname: goddard
Registered: May, 2007

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 9, 2008 12:18 PM
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all right, i took the declination part wrong. but i don't think that josh is the god here, he just expressed his wish. java became ugly enough after generics...
actually, am not into jee (maybe i should but i just don't like it). the problem is that afer java, sun doesn't know where to go, thus what to innovate. they decided for jfx as the next thing, so let's see if they can jump leaps forward to be on par with competitors soon.

Jiri Goddard

Posts: 54
Nickname: goddard
Registered: May, 2007

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 9, 2008 12:33 PM
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if sun dies, there'll be less java and less other things from sun. i noticed that majority of the opensource technologies from sun are maintained only by sun...
ibm would do it different way, but not necessarily better way. i work for ibm :) the only wish i have is that if sun dies, there'll still be people developing the jvm in different way than ibm does it... on jfx - i just seeked bluepages for jfx groups, and there's only one javafx user group and has 4 members. otherwise the search has 366 hits, not much for 300k + company (i hope i'll not receive warning letter next day ;) )

Bruce Eckel

Posts: 868
Nickname: beckel
Registered: Jun, 2003

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 9, 2008 2:49 PM
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Before Sun just had to (re)invent their own thing from scratch, they had a great opportunity: partner with the Flex folks to make a hybrid of Java and Flex for UIs. There were attempts to make this happen, but Sun decided, for some reason, that it could reinvent. That was, what, two years ago? All this time there could have been a synergy with Java and Flex, which could have been amazing. Instead we have a mediocre JavaFX with resources pulled away from Swing.

There do exist open-source libraries to connect Java and Flex, but it could have been so much better had Sun chosen not to be its usual arrogant self.

Sean Landis

Posts: 129
Nickname: seanl
Registered: Mar, 2002

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 9, 2008 4:52 PM
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Bruce is right on the money. Client-side Java would have benefited greatly had Sun not moved forward with JavaFX. The technology fell into their lap as an accidental side effect of the SeeBeyond acquisition and I guess greed overcame reason. Putting their resources behind Flex would have been a financial win for Sun too.

I feel JavaFX has really created a lot of confusion and has set client-side Java back. But I think this is short term. I believe the Java community will catch on soon; it's been two years and JavaFX is still no where near Flex. It seems likely, as we see more comparisons between JavaFX and Flex, that Sun will again lose its will and embrace Flex.

It is just very unfortunate that the community loses the vast benefit that Sun could provide if there were better decision making.

Jiri Goddard

Posts: 54
Nickname: goddard
Registered: May, 2007

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 10, 2008 2:29 AM
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i am afraid that jfx will never be near to flex. jfx i s more like flash with it's node centric approach where most of the "generic" components are left out...

James Watson

Posts: 2024
Nickname: watson
Registered: Sep, 2005

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 10, 2008 1:23 PM
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> What did IBM do to COBOL? They forked from ANSI early on.
> IBM would turn java into a WebSphere extension; there
> e will be IBM java and open java. The IBM jdk is already
> different.

In what way is the IBM JDK different and what is the IBM JDK exactly? I currently deploy Java to an IBM JVM and I build my code using a Sun compiler. It runs as expected. I have seen no divergence from the standard JDK.

> Where would client side java matter to an IBM javBOL? In
> particular, would IBM do anything different? Well, maybe.
> It is common knowledge (and true from my viewpoint) that
> t the applet exists in corporate intranets. Few other
> places. IBM did the SWT. A java sponsored by IBM would
> likely be more interested in a quality client side
> technology. Whether that is Swing/SWT or javaFX or
> something else yet is not clear.
>
> But those interested in client side java should be hoping
> for an IBM coup.

Not me. IBM doesn't really seem to 'get' Java. My impression is that there are a lot of people in IBM that don't believe in Java. The fact is that until IBM opensourced eclipse, it was a steaming pile of poop. IBMs Java-based client for the AS400 is unusable while other vendors provide much better Java-based clients for the same platform. I wouldn't expect much quality from IBM on the Java client side.

Personally, I think that the biggest problem with Java on the client side is that Sun hasn't finished anything it has started with respect to the client. Swing could have been pretty decent long ago and a DSL that made it about as easy to use as VB could have been done ages ago.

robert young

Posts: 361
Nickname: funbunny
Registered: Sep, 2003

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 10, 2008 3:31 PM
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> In what way is the IBM JDK different and what is the IBM
> JDK exactly? I currently deploy Java to an IBM JVM and I
> build my code using a Sun compiler. It runs as expected.
> I have seen no divergence from the standard JDK.

From the myeclipse site:

Be sure to the set the JRE home directory to the /java folder under your WebSphere 6 install. You should not try and configure any JDK here, WebSphere is known to run on a heavily modified IBM JDK and running it with Sun's JDK, JRockit, GCJ or other JDKs simply will not work.

And my place has had the same experience. Now, it could be argued that WebSphere being dependent on the IBM jdk is no big deal. Or it could be seen as the edge of the slippery slope.

Sean Landis

Posts: 129
Nickname: seanl
Registered: Mar, 2002

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 10, 2008 3:59 PM
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> Or it could be seen as the edge of the
> slippery slope.

IBM? Vendor lock in? I don't believe it! ;-)

James Watson

Posts: 2024
Nickname: watson
Registered: Sep, 2005

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 10, 2008 5:08 PM
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> From the myeclipse site:
>
> Be sure to the set the JRE home directory to the /java
> folder under your WebSphere 6 install. You should not try
> and configure any JDK here, WebSphere is known to run on a
> heavily modified IBM JDK and running it with Sun's JDK,
> JRockit, GCJ or other JDKs simply will not work.

That page seems be confused about the distinction between the JDK and the JRE. Note that all the fields referenced and screen shots say JRE. It's easy to get confused because the JDK comes with a JRE.

Even the term JDK can be a little ambiguous. There's the compiler and then there's the libraries. My understanding is that all the major Java vendors have purchased Sun's JDK source. It's basically the only way to be consistent with the Sun JDK. All JVM bytecode should be consistent otherwise it violates the terms of their license (ala Microsoft.) Most likely WebSphere is dependent on behaviors in native libraries written by IBM.

> And my place has had the same experience. Now, it could
> be argued that WebSphere being dependent on the IBM jdk is
> no big deal. Or it could be seen as the edge of the
> slippery slope.

It's not that big of a deal IMO. You might not be able to run Websphere against any JVM but (to my knowledge) you can use binaries compiled against other compilers in their VM. The only mystery greater than why anyone would run WebSphere is why anyone would want to run WebSphere on a non-IBM JVM. If you ask IBM they will probably tell you that the reason has to do with performance.

Vincent O'Sullivan

Posts: 724
Nickname: vincent
Registered: Nov, 2002

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 11, 2008 4:37 AM
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> java became ugly enough after generics...

Java became ugly when Calendar (or rather its geektabulous GregorianCalendar implementation) sort of, more or less, replaced Date in an almost - but not completely - kind of half-hearted fashion in Java 1.1. A situation that may (or may not) be resolved when Java 1.7 (aka Java 7 but not to be mixed up with Java 3.0) is (or might be) released. The solution being the incorporation of a third-party alternative that's already been available for a couple of years.

Sun has been nothing if not consistant in the way it deals with Java's weaknesses.

Mark Thornton

Posts: 275
Nickname: mthornton
Registered: Oct, 2005

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 11, 2008 4:39 AM
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The currently proposed fix for Date/Calendar is JSR-310 which is from the same people as JodaTime but with significant differences.

robert young

Posts: 361
Nickname: funbunny
Registered: Sep, 2003

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 11, 2008 8:57 AM
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> If you ask IBM they will probably tell you
> that the reason has to do with performance.

And the slope goes to 90 degrees when WebSphere (or JBoss or WebLogic or...) suggests that your servlet application will run so much better if you run IBMHttpServlet. Which they can, and still be in compliance. What M$ did was stupid: they replaced base classes rather than extending them. They would have gotten just as much lockin and been in compliance had they been smart enough to do what IBM looks to be doing. Base jdk code will run, just pukey.

In any case, IBM is likely the better steward of java for folks worried about client-side java. Most any big guy other than Sun would be better, it's just that IBM has tried.

We now return you to the thread already in progress.

Vincent O'Sullivan

Posts: 724
Nickname: vincent
Registered: Nov, 2002

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 11, 2008 9:48 AM
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> The currently proposed fix for Date/Calendar is JSR-310
> which is from the same people as JodaTime but with
> significant differences.

Indeed. The Calendar classes first appeared in Java 1.1 in 1997. JodaTime appeared six years later in 2003, when it became apparent that Sun was in no hurry to sort out the mess themselves - despite vociferous complaints from developers. Finally, Sun might incorporate JodaTime into Java in 2009.

Twelve years to close the circle (if it happens)! It's just too long. Meanwhile, .net goes from strength to strength and Java still has no front end technology fit for the 21st century. Sun rewote EJBs in a fraction of that time, so we know that they can do it.

I'm sure the problem isn't lack of money nor lack of brainpower but something is acting as a positive brake on Java's evolution.

Mark Thornton

Posts: 275
Nickname: mthornton
Registered: Oct, 2005

Re: Has JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java? Posted: Nov 11, 2008 10:50 AM
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Time is more complex than it appears so it is hard to do in a hurry. JodaTime doesn't meet some needs --- for example JSR310 has nanosecond resolution to match SQL whereas JodaTime is millisecond resolution. Even JSR310 is unsuitable for much scientific use (where durations would normally be doubles), but they have decided to leave that application area to packages.

Tom Flaherty

Posts: 7
Nickname: axiom6
Registered: Dec, 2006

Where is JWebPane/WebKit? Posted: Nov 11, 2008 2:08 PM
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Yes indeed JavaFX Hurt Client-Side Java.

Core improvements to the Swing API should continue and be made available to both the Java and JavaFX communities.

One of my biggest concerns is the availability of JWebPane the interface to WebKit. JWebPane/WebKit which would provide an excellent embedded browser that would take Swing to a whole new level, especially since WebKit is state of the art in processing JavaScript/jQuery.

Please reply if you know how to get a hold of JWebPane.

Sun is so close to having it all, if they could only follow through on JWebPane and other brilliant initiatives.

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