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I Believe in Design

40 replies on 3 pages. Most recent reply: Dec 24, 2009 3:25 PM by robert young

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Fred Finkelstein

Posts: 48
Nickname: marsilya
Registered: Jun, 2008

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 24, 2009 9:56 AM
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The answer is of course clear and very simple: Just abolish the n e c e s s i t y to work. I.e. nobody should work because he has to (he has to earn money to live, spend food etc). Give people enough money to live and let them choose what they want to spend their times with. You will see that companies will become much more attractive as work places because then they will have to attract the employees to their company as they already do with customers. But of course this idea is too revolutionary to be taken seriously, I'm afraid.

James Watson

Posts: 2024
Nickname: watson
Registered: Sep, 2005

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 24, 2009 11:13 AM
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> The answer is of course clear and very simple: Just
> abolish the n e c e s s i t y to work. I.e. nobody should
> work because he has to (he has to earn money to live,
> spend food etc).

Yeah, let's start with all the farmers and see how that works out.

Money isn't worth anything if no one has to work for it.

Dick Ford

Posts: 149
Nickname: roybatty
Registered: Sep, 2003

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 24, 2009 11:17 AM
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> The answer is of course clear and very simple: Just
> abolish the n e c e s s i t y to work. I.e. nobody should
> work because he has to (he has to earn money to live,
> spend food etc). Give people enough money to live and let
> them choose what they want to spend their times with. You
> will see that companies will become much more attractive
> as work places because then they will have to attract the
> employees to their company as they already do with
> customers. But of course this idea is too revolutionary to
> be taken seriously, I'm afraid.

And I hope you weren't serious.

Fred Finkelstein

Posts: 48
Nickname: marsilya
Registered: Jun, 2008

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 24, 2009 11:18 AM
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>> Money isn't worth anything if no one has to work for it.

I think you misunderstood me. I wanted to say that you give them so much money that they can practically survive. Not that they can live in luxury or so. If someone wants to buy a car he should have to work. But if someone is okay with having a small apartment where he can watch tv all day long that should be ok too. This person wouldn't be a motivated or even valuable employee anyway.

Fred Garvin

Posts: 52
Nickname: fredgarvin
Registered: Jan, 2008

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 24, 2009 2:45 PM
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> >> Money isn't worth anything if no one has to work for
> it.
>
> I think you misunderstood me. I wanted to say that you
> give them so much money that they can practically survive.
> Not that they can live in luxury or so. If someone wants
> to buy a car he should have to work. But if someone is
> okay with having a small apartment where he can watch tv
> all day long that should be ok too. This person wouldn't
> be a motivated or even valuable employee anyway.

And who pays for these people to eat and watch TV all day? Oh wait... I think we've come full circle to Bruce's origninal observation regarding Britain's miserable failure of an experiment called socialism.

Fred Finkelstein

Posts: 48
Nickname: marsilya
Registered: Jun, 2008

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 24, 2009 3:11 PM
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>> Oh wait... I think we've come full circle to Bruce's
>> origninal observation regarding Britain's miserable
>> failure of an experiment called socialism.

I already said, this idea is too revolutionary to be accepted yet or even to be understood. Suppose you live in the middle ages and say: the peasant should have the same rights as the aristocrat. Everybody would laugh and deem you crazy then. When we (programmers) automate the processes then robots do the work and there is no work left for human beings. That is so easy to see. Pure logic. Nothing to do with capitalism or socialism.

Fred Garvin

Posts: 52
Nickname: fredgarvin
Registered: Jan, 2008

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 24, 2009 4:47 PM
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> I already said, this idea is too revolutionary to be
> accepted yet or even to be understood. Suppose you live in
> the middle ages and say: the peasant should have the same
> rights as the aristocrat. Everybody would laugh and deem
> you crazy then. When we (programmers) automate the
> processes then robots do the work and there is no work
> left for human beings. That is so easy to see. Pure logic.
> Nothing to do with capitalism or socialism.

Ok. I suppose after create and enslave intelligent beings to do our work for us... I've seen the movie and it doesn't end well.

James Watson

Posts: 2024
Nickname: watson
Registered: Sep, 2005

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 24, 2009 5:13 PM
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> I already said, this idea is too revolutionary to be
> accepted yet or even to be understood. Suppose you live in
> the middle ages and say: the peasant should have the same
> rights as the aristocrat. Everybody would laugh and deem
> you crazy then. When we (programmers) automate the
> processes then robots do the work and there is no work
> left for human beings. That is so easy to see. Pure logic.
> Nothing to do with capitalism or socialism.

Under (capital C) Capitalism this scenario could lead to a dystopian nightmare. If we have robots that can replace most or all of what humans do, you could end up with a situation where the wealthy own many robots and have no need to hire anyone or invest in anything other than resources (land, raw materials) and more robots. The more robots you have the wealthier you become allowing you to buy more robots (or put some of your robots to work making more robots.) Those who can't afford to purchase any robots in the beginning of this cycle would be lost. No robots and no way to get money to buy some.

There are other ways this could play out but in a libertarian environment, it could easily turn out that way. It scares me a little given how advances in robotics seem to be accelerating.

Marc Stock

Posts: 17
Nickname: salient1
Registered: Mar, 2007

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 24, 2009 5:43 PM
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Britain produced the entire industrial revolution? That's news to me.

As for WWW. Ok, Tim Berners-Lee invented HTML which is simply a ripoff/modified version of SGML which was invented by IBM. He did invent the HTTP protocol but it runs on top of technology developed in the US. Of course, the internet itself comes from the US.

Jonathan Finn

Posts: 10
Nickname: lucretius
Registered: Jun, 2006

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 24, 2009 6:52 PM
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> Britain produced the entire industrial revolution? That's
> news to me.

It did too. Quoth Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution :
"The Industrial Revolution was a period from the 18th to the 19th century where major changes in agriculture, manufacturing, mining, and transport had a profound effect on the socioeconomic and cultural conditions in the United Kingdom. The changes subsequently spread throughout Europe, North America, and eventually the world. The onset of the Industrial Revolution marked a major turning point in human history; almost every aspect of daily life was eventually influenced in some way."

> As for WWW. Ok, Tim Berners-Lee invented HTML which is
> simply a ripoff/modified version of SGML which was
> invented by IBM. He did invent the HTTP protocol but it
> runs on top of technology developed in the US. Of course,
> the internet itself comes from the US.

Sure, TBL gets credit for the WWW not the Internet. But credit where credit's due: many people claim they could have/should have invented something like the WWW, but only he produced his scheme and actually got it to take off. It would be foolish to say it was a fluke: surely it was due to numerous shrewd choices and actions on his part.

Marc Stock

Posts: 17
Nickname: salient1
Registered: Mar, 2007

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 24, 2009 11:14 PM
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I would say Britain started or sparked the industrial revolution. To say Britain produced the entire industrial revolution sounds like a major overstatement. Maybe produced means something else in the UK?

"Sure, TBL gets credit for the WWW not the Internet. But credit where credit's due: many people claim they could have/should have invented something like the WWW, but only he produced his scheme and actually got it to take off. It would be foolish to say it was a fluke: surely it was due to numerous shrewd choices and actions on his part."

Fair enough.

Fred Finkelstein

Posts: 48
Nickname: marsilya
Registered: Jun, 2008

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 25, 2009 1:41 AM
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>> If we have robots that can replace most or all of what
>> humans do, you could end up with a situation where the
>> wealthy own many robots and have no need to hire anyone or >> invest in anything other than resources (land, raw
>> materials) and more robots.

It is already happening that roboters are taking over. Lately I heard a professor saying: "In Germany the car factories are so devoid of people, only machines (= extremely high productivity), I visited a factory in China, and it was so full of people and life, I was delighted.". But I don't know, I wouldn't like to do the job a roboter does anyway. But your vision that as a result the capital will be accumulated dramatically must be taken seriously. Maybe the solution is that everybody becomes a shareholder.

James Watson

Posts: 2024
Nickname: watson
Registered: Sep, 2005

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 25, 2009 10:10 AM
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> But your vision that as a
> result the capital will be accumulated dramatically must
> be taken seriously. Maybe the solution is that everybody
> becomes a shareholder.

I just wanted to add that this is not just something that I dreamed up. Your idea of people being allowed to sit around all day watching TV has already been done. In Rome, free people were given free bread and entertainment (chariot races, gladiators, etc.) This had a lot to do with Rome being a slave-based economy.

Using robots as slaves avoids the inhumanity of enslaving our fellow man but that makes it all the more attractive. It really makes me wonder what people would do with themselves if all labor could be done by robots. I'd like to say we'd all make art for each other and/or do intellectual work (assuming computers don't supercede our abilities there) but I doubt that will be realistic.

Mark Thornton

Posts: 275
Nickname: mthornton
Registered: Oct, 2005

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 25, 2009 11:51 AM
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> I would say Britain started or sparked the industrial
> revolution. To say Britain produced the entire industrial
> revolution sounds like a major overstatement. Maybe
> produced means something else in the UK?

By the time there were significant contributions from other countries, the period is labelled differently. As far as I can see Britain's contribution in terms of invention dominates until at least the later part of the 19 century.

John Zabroski

Posts: 272
Nickname: zbo
Registered: Jan, 2007

Re: I Believe in Design Posted: Nov 25, 2009 2:12 PM
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Guys,

Shut up and buy Kirby Vacuum Cleaners.

You are arguing about bike sheds.

The winner has been around forever.

Kirby is by far and away the best vacuum cleaner company in the world.

Usually, they would be sold via door-to-door salesmen.

http://www.kirby.com/

Any other vacuum is a loser.

You are stupid and ugly if you are not using a Kirby.

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