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The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts

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Bruce Eckel

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Nickname: beckel
Registered: Jun, 2003

The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts (View in Weblogs)
Posted: Dec 18, 2005 8:38 AM
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The Java hyper-enthusiasts have left the building, leaving a significant contingent of Java programmers behind, blinking in the bright lights without the constant drumbeat of boosterism.

But the majority of programmers, who have been relatively quiet all this time, always knew that Java is a combination of strengths and weaknesses. These folks are not left with any feelings of surprise, but instead they welcome the silence, because it's easier to think and work.

Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go? To Ruby, apparently. This is chronicled in Bruce Tate's book "Beyond Java," which should probably be titled "Why Ruby is Better than Java." The book is roughly edited; you'll find yourself thinking "haven't I read this paragraph before?" in any number of places, but that's a disappointing experience I've had with several O'Reilly books of late. In many places he plays fast and loose, and almost at the end of the book he declares that he doesn't have time to learn these other languages in any depth -- although he has no trouble condemning the same languages in his rush to Ruby. Such a statement should be in the first paragraph of the book: "I've decided that I love Ruby, so I will condemn other languages without fully understanding them" (in one sentence repeated in a number of places in the book, for example, he declares that C# is no more than a clone of Java). I've been on the rollercoaster of language-love myself in the past and have made similar mistakes; one error in particular was dismissing Python's scoping-by-indentation when I first saw it (months later realizing that we always indicate scoping by indentation anyway, even when we have curly braces available). Now I try to investigate and support my ideas about these things more thoroughly. It takes a lot more time and effort to do so, but it also leaves a more lasting impression.

This is not to say that Tate's book is valueless; on the contrary, it is worth reading. I've learned a number of new and useful things from it. But you must be prepared to be annoyed in places. Tate shrugs this off as being just a matter of opinion, but if you know more than he does about some of the languages he criticizes, you'll realize that, as he admitted, he just didn't want to put in the effort. Because of that, even the new things that you learn from the book you'll wonder about -- did he actually do his homework on this particular topic, or will you be embarrassed in public if you use his explanation? For example, I think I now understand about continuations and continuation servers (which seem to be very powerful concepts), but upon reflection I had better double-check that knowledge elsewhere.

Recently, two people that I know have gotten into an indirect tiff about what "simplicity" means. Martin Fowler (with whom I've organized technical meetings) first made the assertion that the Ruby library was simple and elegant. For awhile, Martin was using Python, but several years ago he departed that camp for Ruby, explaining that Ruby had blocks like Smalltalk and that he liked blocks. He seems to have been happy about his decision.

Martin's argument is that Java's List interface requires you to say aList.get(aList.size -1) to get the last element, and this seemed silly to him. Which it is, if you have unified all sequence containers (that is, list containers) into a single type, as Ruby and Python do. Java, however, follows the C++ STL approach of providing different types based on the efficiency of various operations. The Java libraries do not unify to a single list type because of efficiency issues, so you have to decide if you are going to be fetching the last element from a list a lot, and if you are you use a LinkedList, which does have a getLast() method -- a fact which was completely left out of Martin's original discussion, and the ensuing firefight (other than some ignored comments).

Elliotte Rusty Harold (who took over the management of the Java track at the SD conference from me; I actually lived in the building next to his in Brooklyn for two months once) observed that Ruby's library design didn't seem so simple and clear to him, and he went into detail about many of the methods in the list class, pointing out that they often seemed to make no sense and wondering whether anyone was actually using some of them. Elliotte has spent a lot of time on library design recently, producing the XOM XML library which, I think, represents some very clear thinking. Look at what he writes; I think he makes a good case.

On the other hand, I'll bet that list was one of the first library classes that Matz wrote. You can find plenty of methods and classes in Java 1.0 that appear to be amateurish additions, as well. I think a better test, for both Ruby and Java, is to examine the classes that people have created when they have more experience with the language and its use. I note that I rarely find methods in the Python libraries that make me wonder why they were included, and I think that comes from the maturity of Python (which predates Java). Also, understanding the constraints under which Josh Bloch designed the Java libraries might make you understand that design a little better. Personally, I prefer the simplicity of Python's single list class to Java or C++'s multiple implementations, but a single list implementation must make efficiency compromises. Library design involves compromise, and if such a compromise disagrees with you you're likely to feel it was a bad choice.

Aside from Tate, we know the hyper-enthusiasts have moved to Ruby because of the howls of protest at Harold's opinion (although much of this was before his analysis of list). We can identify hyper-enthusiasts because the arguments have a strongly faith-based flavor to them. X is the true way, therefore anything X is best by definition, and all other languages lack X's goodness. For example, upon discovering metaclass programming, a number of Ruby hyper-enthusiasts (I don't have Tate's book with me, so I don't remember if he was one), have declared that Python is incapable of metaclass programming, which is untrue. It may be true that Ruby's metaclasses are easier to grasp and use than Python's, but Python has had the capability for many years.

Ruby is to Perl what C++ was to C. Ruby improves and simplifies the Perl language (the name "Ruby" is even a tribute to Perl), and adds workable OO features (If you've ever tried to use classes or references in Perl, you know what I'm talking about. I have no idea whether Perl 6 will rectify this or not, but I stopped paying attention long ago). But it also seems to carry forward some of the Perl warts. For anyone used to, and tired of, Perl, this certainly seems like a huge improvement, but I'm tired of all impositions by a language upon my thinking process, and so arbitrary naming conventions, reversed syntax and begin-end statments all seem like impediments to me.

But it's hard to argue that Ruby hasn't moved things forward, just like C++ and Java have. It has clearly shaken the Python community up a little; for a long time they were on the high ground of pure, clean language design. Although the Perlish warts in Ruby don't have that cleanliness, when Matz started from scratch on Ruby he was able to look at the problem in a fresh way and he's done some things that have made the Python core folks look again at "what problem are we solving?" Ruby, for example has coroutines, as I learned from Tate's book. The expression of coroutines in Ruby (at least, according to Tate's example) is awkward, but they are there, and I suspect that this may be why coroutines -- albeit in a much more elegant form -- are appearing in Python 2.5. Python's coroutines also allow straightforward continuations, and so we may see continuation servers implemented using Python 2.5.

And of course, who can ignore Rails? The backlash from heavyweight web frameworks has been significant. We now know that EJB 1 & 2 were based on an entirely flawed set of use cases. Because of the damage this (still slowly dawning) realization has wrought to Sun's reputation, it's hard to know whether EJB3, which probably should have been called something else to disassociate it with the failures of its predecessors, will succeed, despite the fact that EJB3 is like a breath of fresh air. You look at the code and it makes sense; no bizzarre and obscure interfaces and concepts to puzzle over while thinking, "I wonder why I have to do this? Well, these guys are clearly smarter than I am." (I tried to understand EJB1, but when I first heard that entity beans didn't actually work, my brain refused to let me invest any more time, which turned out to be the right choice). As a result of all this, someone said "hey, all I want to do is create a database and use it from the web. Why should I do all that work?" As it turns out, such activities seem to be about 90% of all we ever do in "Enterprise" programming, and EJB 1/2 were solving an entirely different problem, and making the 90% incredibly difficult in the process. Thus, the Rails approach of "just connect the database to the web."

Rails brings up a deeper issue, as well. Apparently, something "relatively simple that you only do once," such as setting up the database by writing SQL, really does benefit from automation, possibly because you actually end up doing these things more than once. Or possibly because simplicity of both expression and of understanding really is important. There is a faction among us that seems to feel that if you can do anything at all, it doesn't matter how many hoops you must jump through to accomplish that thing. These are the folks that assert that Java's verbosity is "just finger typing that Eclipse/IntelliJ will do for me," and it doesn't matter if the resulting code has 20 times the visual bulk of a simpler approach. One of the basic tenets of the Python language has been that code should be simple and clear to express and to read, and Ruby has followed this idea, although not as far as Python has because of the inherited Perlisms. But for someone who has invested Herculean effort to use EJBs just to baby-sit a database, Rails must seem like the essence of simplicity. The understandable reaction for such a person is that everything they did in Java was a waste of time, and that Ruby is the one true path.

The Rails fallout in the Python community has been significant. Pythonistas have been busy since the beginning of the web, trying to understand the problem and spinning off a multitude of web frameworks to solve it. Because of the confusion in the web space in general (hindered further by the dead-end reasoning behind EJB1/2 -- how many billions of dollars were wasted by this?), there was no nucleating agent that made any one of these frameworks come forward as clear winners, although it might be argued that Django had been in development for several years and appears to predate Rails, even if it wasn't public until after Rails.

My own experience in web frameworks was with Zope. In an interesting parallel with EJB3, Zope is now on version 3 which is a from-the-ground-up redesign, and everything I've seen of it indicates that, like EJB3, it represents a great deal of rethinking of the problem. I've been bumping up against the problem of "but all I want to do is connect a database to the web" in Zope2 for several years now. Oh, it's definitely something you can do, but unfortunately it's past the knee of the "Z-shaped learning curve," and is only trivial if you live and breathe Zope every day. Don't get me wrong; Zope is an excellent system and incredibly powerful, and Zope3 may be much easier, but I'm out of steam. I have realized that on my site, I really just want to do a collection of simple things, and I don't want to relearn Zope every time I want to accomplish something. So -- sorry, Jim (Fulton, not Kirk) -- I'm going to find something drop-dead simple to solve my drop-dead simple problems. Probably PHP5, which actually includes most of Java and C++ syntax, amazingly enough, and I wonder if that isn't what made IBM adopt it.

I'm sure we will find that the Rails approach isn't the ultimate solution; there will be plenty of other problems that we need to solve on the way to making web development easy. But it represents a fundamental restart in the thinking process. And it has caused, in the Python community, attention to Django, the development of Subway (although I don't know how that one is faring), and the creation of Turbogears, which seems like a very good solution because it builds on best-of-breed existing pieces using a Rails-inspired approach.

Clearly Ruby is making important contributions to the programming world. I think we're seeing the effects sooner in Python than elsewhere, but I suspect it will have an effect on Java as well, eventually, if only in the web-framework aspects. Java-on-rails might actually tempt me into creating a web app using Java again.

However, I can't see Ruby, or anything other than C#, impacting the direction of the Java language, because of the way things have always happened in the Java world. And I think the direction that C# 3.0 may be too forward-thinking for Java to catch up to.

But here's something interesting. I was on the C++ standards committee from the initial meeting and for about 8 years. When Java burst on the scene with its onslaught of Sun marketing, a number of people on the standards committee told me they were moving over to Java, and stopped coming to meetings. And although some users of Python like Martin Fowler (who, it could be argued, was actually a Smalltalk programmer looking for a substitute, because the Smalltalk relationship never really worked out in the real world) have moved to Ruby, I have not heard of any of the rather significant core of Python language and library developers saying "hey, this Ruby thing really solves a lot of problems we've been having in Python, I'm going over there." Instead, they write PEPs (Python Enhancement Proposals) and morph the language to incorporate the good features.

I think we've mostly been hearing from people who have come from Perl and found Ruby to be a "better Perl, with objects that work," or people who are finally convinced that dynamic languages have merit, and so mix the enthusiasm of the first time dynamic language user (quite a rush, as I remember from my 2-month experience with Perl many years ago) with their experience of Ruby. So far, I've heard from the hyper-enthusiasts about Ruby being cool, or that it has begin-end blocks and they don't like indentation to delineate scope. That kind of thing: "I like this, I don't like that," which is fine but not compelling. The person I want to hear from is the core Python expert, someone who knows that language incredibly well, who has decided that Ruby is just so much better that all the mature Python libraries and community expertise doesn't hold a candle to the value of moving to Ruby. That person would be able to make a compelling, feature-by-feature argument (such an essay is better served as his or her own weblog entry, rather than posting it as a comment here).

Kyrill Alyoshin

Posts: 2
Nickname: kyrill007
Registered: Dec, 2005

Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 10:00 AM
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Very glad that you touched on the Tate's book. How about "I've never written a single EJB in my life" from an author of "Bitter EJB"?..

I am sensing quite a bit of commercial pressure from Bruce and his camp. They are simply not making enough margin teaching Java anymore. To do make that margin, you have to work hard, maybe not as hard as B. Eckel but still really hard: play with intricacies of the language, dig ever deeper and deeper, invest the time to write a book... But that's hard to do, kayaking is way more interesting. So, it seems like Ruby has potential, why not throw a book or two at it, run a few $1000 a day courses... If you read "Beyond Java", this is exactly what Jason Hunter says in his interview.

I think mercantilism of "hyper-enthusiasts" is yet to be analysed.

That said, I am not buying another Tate's book every again, no matter how "pragmatic" it is.

Kevin Lawrence

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Nickname: kevlaw
Registered: Feb, 2005

Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 11:41 AM
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XP has made it fashionable to use code to express ideas and Ruby allows you to do that. Java requires you to write lots of code in the solution domain which obscures the code that addresses the problem at hand. The Java APIs demonstrate the minimal interface philosophy throughout and I find them painful to use. This, IMO, is the main reason for the flight to Ruby.

I blogged more about it here

Why Ruby and not Python ? I don't know but a colleague and I recently tried tackling the Python Challenge - he in Python and I in Ruby - and our solutions were almost symbol for symbol identical. Around challenge #8 I started to miss IntelliJ and went back to Java for the rest.

Jakub Pawlowicz

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Nickname: jpawlowicz
Registered: Dec, 2005

Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 2:01 PM
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I think you are mainly right about reasons for people moving to Ruby, and its influence on Python and Java languages.
But by saying that "Java-on-rails might actually tempt me into creating a web app using Java again." and by comparing development in Ruby to the one in EJB 1/2 (or even EJB 3), you are missing the fact, that part of the server-side Java community has already moved to the lightweight approaches such as Spring Framework.
From a one and a half year experience of working as a Spring web developer I must admit that the server-side Java development could be much simpler with lightweight approaches than it was in the EJB 1/2 times.

Jonathan Ellis

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Registered: Aug, 2005

Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 2:52 PM
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I blogged something similar (but much shorter) a couple months ago: I was a little surprised to see that "I don't like syntactically meaningful whitespace" was the most significant reason to prefer ruby most people gave. As usual, people are making decisions based on hype instead of thinking things through, which is disappointing.

Joao Pedrosa

Posts: 114
Nickname: dewd
Registered: Dec, 2005

Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 2:54 PM
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The issue at hand is comparable to the "to use or not to use EJB". I, too, had a bad time trying to use EJBs, so maybe you can demonstrate some simpaty for a now Ruby user who can't seem to use any other language.

I claim that Ruby is simple enough for me to concentrate on the problem and not on the language (primary tool). Maybe for you Python is cleaner, but to me Python is harder than Ruby when I try to read the code. Ruby has a nice convention of "CamelCase", "methods_names", "", etc, that make the code easier to read than a similar Python code, because in Python you don't have a good convention for that. Also, when I require 'afile.rb' in Ruby, it's much easier to read than the "import this.that.Something" in Python. Thus, despite the forced indentation, I prefer the way that the Ruby code looks and feels in comparison to the Python code.

On the supported libraries, Python has a very good selection, indeed. I would say that the Python libraries might be very good in comparison to the Ruby libraries. On the other hand, Ruby has very unique libraries which feel good to use. So, even if Python has more libraries, Ruby should have some quality libraries that compensate a lot for the difference. By considering that one should be well served using Ruby or Python in terms of libraries, the Python's force over Ruby diminishes quite a bit.

Finally, when you are up to the task of creating something new, like a library or program, you may be much more well served by using Ruby if you get to the point of fluid Ruby programming. But, if all you want is to create some web app, maybe Rails already fulfills your requirements.

Even if you consider Python better, for example, because Googles uses it and you want to work for Google or something, that won't make us Ruby users give up on improving the language and the available tools. I simply love Ruby and I will keep using it for the forseeable future -- in the future, if I can make a major contribution to the Ruby community, I will.

Pierre Bernard

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Registered: Dec, 2005

Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 2:57 PM
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Have you tried Apple's WebObjects? It's Enterprise Object Frameworks do a great job in mapping entity-relation model storage to a Java OO design. The actual WebObjects layer is a great component based architecture for delivering content to various types clients.

WebObjects 5.3 is now free with every Mac. WebObjects itself dates back to the NeXT days and has its roots in NeXTStep.

Joao Pedrosa

Posts: 114
Nickname: dewd
Registered: Dec, 2005

Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 3:10 PM
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BTW, another convention that I think Ruby has better than Python is the OO convention of the syntax and libraries. Because Ruby has always had an OO approach, and Python still struggles to support OO as well as Ruby does.

I don't remember writing pure procedural code since a long time ago.

I never had an easy life trying to find what I need in Python. On the other hand, the PragProg free book and the online Ruby documentation have always felt very easy to follow as a reference.

That has been my contribution to this thread. Merry X. Happy new year.

Phillip J. Eby

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Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 3:31 PM
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"""Python still struggles to support OO as well as Ruby does"""

FUD and nonsense. If Python advocates were to use such slippery reasoning, we'd be saying that Ruby isn't OO because it lacks multiple inheritance and it's unsafe because its builtin types lack encapsulation.

Stop repeating religious slogans and try thinking for yourself.

Joao Pedrosa

Posts: 114
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Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 3:38 PM
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Well, after 30k of lines of Ruby code I prefer the OO of Ruby. Maybe you have 30k LoC of Python code and you prefer the OO of Python.

My slogan is based on personal experience, but I lack a lot of Python experience even though I tried to use it even before Ruby. EJB?! :P

JOhn Mudd

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Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 3:41 PM
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Good article.

The general theme seems to be that the best language should win out. Seems fair but maybe Python (gulp) is not the best. Maybe well engineered but not the best marketed.

I recently made the observation that lots of people won't give Python a chance because of "scope by indent" and suggested that optional (let me repeat this a few times: optional, optional, optional) braces could bring Python into the mainstream. The response: no way. Later it dawned on me the response made sense, considering that it was from an audience of engineers. I just need to make the same suggestion to the marketing department. Oops, there is none. And hence the first problem with Python.

The term "hyper-enthusiasts" conveys to me a sense of disdain for marketing. I think otherwise. I believe the saying that no tool (not even Python) is good enough to sell itself. It's the person that champions the tool, not the tool, that makes the difference. Argue all you want that this is not right or fair. You'll only miss the point.

This is not to say that Python doesn't also suffer engineering weakness. Yes, the GIL. And amazingly the same engineers that reject marketing suggestions also reject the suggestion that the GIL needs to go. That's really scary. Strike two for Python.

But hopefully there won't be a strike three. PyPy may soon eliminate the GIL. And (why not?) it may also throw in optional braces. I'm hopeful as Python is re-written in Python that there will be a shift of control to a new generation. That's where the real hope lies, not in adding yet another minor feature such as continuations.


leouser leouser

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Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 4:36 PM
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That was a very interesting article to read. Im not going to buy Beyond Java because I just don't need to read it. :D I had the choice of buying Swing Hacks or Beyond Java. I got Swing Hacks and have had a much better time with it than I probably could ever have with Beyond Java. I read "Better,Faster,Lighter Java" and don't remember what I learned from it. I do remember some silly Hello World EJB example that was supposed to prove something. :D

I write software in Java and Python and I haven't become disillusioned by either one of them. I don't need metaprogramming. I need classes and methods. The languages supply both of these for me. Exotic features don't impress me. Ive looked at blocks in ruby and I don't know why in the world I would switch over to Ruby because of the feature. I don't use Python because of generators.

I read Java and Python code. I find it very simple to figure out what Java code is doing. I probably read the Java libraries source every day. Mystery seems absent from it. I have trouble figuring out Python code sometimes not because of bizare syntax but because it lacks the informational punch that Java code carries with it. If it was Ruby or Perl Id have the same problem, but I guess in those languages it may be aggravated by oddball syntax. :D

Languages don't suddenly become broken or bad. Java and Python have remained relatively the same for a long time. I would think it would have been obvious to these "oh my, I never understood that Java is bad until now" folks long ago that they didn't like the tool.

Again, why do I like Java and Python? Simplicity and clarity.

Libraries are important as well. I really like the Java libraries. The java.util.concurrent packages were a wonderful addition to the kit. Those are a joy to work with and read. Does Ruby have a CyclicBarrier or do I need to write my own? Does Python have one? No, but I can easily use them in Jython.

So I guess the current Anti-Java crowd hasn't convinced me that I don't enjoy programming in Java or can't successfully build my software in it. "Hyper-Supporters?", well let em go. Im not sure if they ever taught me anything new anyway.


Martin DeMello

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Ode to the block Posted: Dec 18, 2005 8:46 PM
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Your noting that Martin Fowler left Python for Ruby "because Ruby had blocks like Smalltalk and he liked blocks" does not really do justice to how indispensible a feature said blocks are. While I consider myself a Ruby enthusiast (perhaps even a hyper-enthusiast), I do realise it's a combination of strengths and weaknesses, and will not claim it's the One True Language for everything under the sun. I *will* however claim that lexical closures are an absolute must for a high level language, and would not now consider investing in one that didn't support them fully. From what little I've seen of Python's lambdas, they don't really count, and all Python's admittedly better library support doesn't make up for the frustration of programming without blocks.

robert young

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Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 8:57 PM
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the point of his book is not clear, i'll grant that. if you take his fundamental premise: we're put on this earth to "baby sit" databases, then the intent becomes clearer.

in RoR, there is the concept/implementation called Scaffolds, in which the engine generates soup to nuts from the database schema. if you think about Model Driven Architecture or Database Driven Design, then RoR looks like a lightweight way to get there. Then you later find that the developer team view Scaffold as a throwaway.

Enter (stage Java) Firestorm/DAO (commercial) and middlegen (OSS) and various others, with the recognition that the middle and UI are just artifacts of the datastore, esp. if the Don't Repeat Yourself mantra is to be followed. Intelligent (database) Design and Code Generation will work in any language. and guess what??? the browser doesn't give rat's patootie where the html, css, and js came from. a good string manipulation language sounds a good bet. maybe that's not java.

so a new paradigm: database geeks who know what a functional dependency is mated to Black Box UI generator that let's them change out a View with a couple of (virtual) switches.

in the years BPC, designers had the upper hand; coders were serfs. maybe the past will be new again.

Jason R Briggs

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Registered: Jul, 2005

Re: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts Posted: Dec 18, 2005 10:09 PM
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> I was a little surprised to see that "I don't like syntactically
> meaningful whitespace" was the most significant reason to
> prefer ruby most people gave.

It's an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction (emphasis on the jerk... ;-). I too exhibited whitespace prejudice coming, as I did, from the rabid java camp (when I first saw Python source a few years ago, I was less than impressed -- thankfully I got over it). It wasn't until I made the effort that saw the light... so to speak.

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