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Hybridizing Java

129 replies on 9 pages. Most recent reply: Mar 18, 2011 1:41 PM by David Benson

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James Madison Jefferson

Posts: 1
Nickname: rh27
Registered: Mar, 2007

(platform reach) Re: Hybridizing Java Posted: Mar 26, 2007 6:23 AM
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> yes, except for 64-bit Linux, but they’re working on it
> and that user base typically has more than one computer,
> and so has alternatives in the meantime

> Just to preemptively fight the FUD... You can easily use
> the 32bit Flash plugin on 64bit Linux using the
> nspluginwrapper. Check out an article on my blog for more
> info:
> bit-linux-in-2-commands/

However, I run linux on a PPC processor (ubuntu). This ensures
that my daughter has less 'iPod lock' to iTunes proprietary
DRM, and has control over her music.

When will Flash be available there? Either the platform is implemented
on top of another ubiquitous standard (such as Java), or it is completely
open source so third parties can port to the platforms of interest to them.

As long as one company (Adobe) is implementing the "superset of standards"
(as ActionScript was referred to earlier), proposing yet another
user interface management system/standard isn't helpful.

Phil Goetz

Posts: 1
Nickname: philgoetz
Registered: Apr, 2007

Re: Hybridizing Java Posted: Apr 10, 2007 9:41 AM
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Two observations:

1. Sun develops Java FOR FREE. If there's a flaw, it's with the expectation users have that Java will continue to be free. Maybe the way to save Java is to pay for it.

2. When you come down hard on Java, without additional caveats, people will use that to justify using C++. C++ gives a speedup usually between -50% (slowdown) and +100% (speedup) over Java, at a cost of having several times as many bugs, each of which take about 10 times as long to resolve due to the difficulty of even finding out what is causing the error. Porting a program written in C++ from one machine to another takes, in my experience, about 100 times as much time and effort as porting a program written in Java. Open-source C++ programs now routinely come with config files and makefiles collectively tens of thousands of lines long, sometimes longer than the program itself. I maintain a large Prolog system, and I spend as much time troubleshooting problems caused by the small portion of (unchanging) C code used, as by the much-larger and still-under-development Prolog section.

David Hall

Posts: 1
Nickname: tmp
Registered: Apr, 2007

Re: Hybridizing Java Posted: Apr 12, 2007 12:40 PM
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I don't like the idea of building the next generation of RIA's on proprietary technology. I use FreeBSD which has no native flash player (unless you want to jump through some flaming hoops to get linux version of flash to run--unstablely--in a wrapper) So are these platforms just SOL? (By the way there is an online petition for this FreeBSD users are at the mercy of Adobe; it's too much power in the hands of one company. The beauty and miracle of html is its true ubiquitousness.

Also, I would be interested to hear people's take on XUL as someone mentioned earlier. I was impressed by the Mozilla Amazon Browser (MAB) which is done in XUL.

Mike Sale

Posts: 1
Nickname: mikes
Registered: Apr, 2007

Re: Hybridizing Java Posted: Apr 26, 2007 2:05 PM
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I see three very basic, and essential issues:

1. Ease and Scalable Data connectivity without Oracle-like pricing
2. Search visibility
3. Complex UI requirements

For #1, OpenLaszlo clearly has the upper hand and pricing of Flex Data Services is ONLY in the hands of large enterprises. Let's face it, Adobe knows you really cannot even buy a low end server today without getting 2 cpus.

WRT #2, it BLOWS me away that this has not entered into the discussion. If you're going to talk about a ubiquitous UI DSL, you cannot ignore the way people get to content today; searchability and linkability is King. Sure, the move of HTML/JS into the "complex" business application UI realm has always been doomed, but it certainly doesn't get replaced for the VAST majority of content and web apps that are out there today... can you imagine that forums like this will be replaced by a Flex RIA? While I DESPISE the web forum UIs, their primary value is their capacity to capture a conversation and make it generally available via google, yahoo and friends.

So you say that you concede that point, but web applications of any level of complexity and personal use should use flex... given their need to interact with an OS (e.g. open/save files, backup, export/import, read files from the OS, etc.) you loose the portability instantly.

All this to say: RIAs that are not based on searchable, linkable content can NEVER replace the need for HTML/AJAX until they solve these problems. In the mean time, Flex and OpenLaszlo fill a great NICHE that the web was (and is) falling on its face trying to provide.

WRT #3, the need for "real" threading, integration with complex and high performance graphics libraries and other "desktop" UI capabilities is not lost on those that actually have to put out applications they sell and support.

So what do you think?


James Ward

Posts: 42
Nickname: jlward4th
Registered: Jun, 2006

Re: Hybridizing Java Posted: Apr 26, 2007 3:02 PM
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Hi Mike,

If you want more than just the basic HTTP communication methods (HTTPService & WebService) that are part of Open Source Flex, and you don't want to invest in FDS, then check out Granite Data Services.


Raúl Valencia

Posts: 1
Nickname: rvalencia
Registered: Jul, 2007

Re: Hybridizing Java... I think some more things should be considered here Posted: Jul 1, 2007 11:15 PM
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For me, Mr. Eckel and many people replying his post were working on the basis of a notorious misconception about Ajax.

Ajax isn’t a well-defined product or technology, like Java. And it is very far of being a hack.

More than a technology or a product, Ajax is a social phenomenon. Although the XMLHttpRequest object is a key component, the word “Ajax” denominates a way of putting a group of technologies and standards to work together. It gives a great deal of freedom to designers and programmers, who can use and mix a lot of technologies and products to create the applications, and imagine and use their own creative ways for storing, processing and presenting the data to the users.

With Ajax, the software developers aren’t bound to the interests of a corporation. Rather than that, the corporations are compelled to support Ajax, if they don’t want to be thrown off the market. And this is a very, very important fact. Ajax wasn’t a standard created by a company and adopted by the people. In the technical jargon of the social disciplines, the asynchronous use of JavaScript and XML began spontaneously, say, no identifiable person or corporation made people to use it, and no single person or group controls its use. Ajax appeared just like the socio-cultural phenomenons appear; and because of that, it is likely to stay with us for a long, long time. (Apart from a software developer I’m an Anthropologist, so believe me, my opinions are well-backed by a good amount of social theory). Google and Yahoo wouldn’t have built the infrastructure of their now-famous Internet services in Ajax if the conditions weren’t favorable.

One important fact about RIAs isn’t considered: they aren’t intended to run solely on the user’s devices. I don’t know a single serious developer who creates mission-critical and complex RIAs that run entirely on the browser or the Flash Player. RIAs have a server part, and often this is their most important one. The heavy work is done in server-scripting technologies such as PHP, JSP or ASP; databases like MySQL, Firebird, Oracle or SQL Server; and many other technologies and products. Of course, this multi-layered execution increases the freedom of the developer. If something is hard or impossible to do at one level, it can be done in another one.

This independence can’t be easily wiped off. Java and Dot Net were advertised as, and effectively are, platforms capable of being the standard RIA platforms. But they don’t give developers the same degree of freedom as Ajax, and I think this is one of the main reasons of their failure to make it.

Flex / Flash Player can be used to provide end users possibilities of interaction never seen before on Internet apps. But Ajax will not disappear. For the future, I bet the Flex SWFs will be communicating with the server with HTTP requests like the Ajax applications of today. I don’t think people would massively embrace the Flex Data Services, because not all the Web servers run a Java Virtual Machine or plan to run one, and there is a really big amount on money already spent on many other server technologies.

dipankar ghosh

Posts: 1
Nickname: dipankar
Registered: Dec, 2005

Re: Hybridizing Java Posted: Sep 13, 2007 1:12 AM
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I do not want to listen to such long story.

We are facing two important issues can Flex solve it ?
a) Should it work if my community disallows to run swf files due to security issues ?
b) Should all browsers be able to run flash by default without any installation?
c) Should it work if javascript is disabled in a browser ?

Who's going to answer ?

Deha Peker

Posts: 1
Nickname: dio
Registered: Mar, 2008

Re: Hybridizing Java Posted: Mar 19, 2008 8:46 PM
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I am quite interested using Flex, but I also come across this Seam framework. I was wondering if Bruce has any opinion on that. Also, what sort of Java technology stack can be suggested as Flex on the front end. I mean Spring or Seam can be used as middle and/or data access tier?

William Edwards

Posts: 1
Nickname: willedw
Registered: Sep, 2009

Re: Hybridizing Java Posted: Sep 22, 2009 3:53 AM
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This was the article that converted me to flex. There is simply no competition, as it derives from flash. ALl other solutions are redundant imho.

I have now converted my career path toward flex, and bought the licence.

My only regret, is that I never saw the article earlier.

David Benson

Posts: 1
Nickname: davidjgrap
Registered: Mar, 2011

Re: Hybridizing Java Posted: Mar 18, 2011 1:41 PM
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I can't agree with the section comparing Gliffy to native browser apps. We created mxGraph in late 2005 and in 2007 easily matched Gliffy for speed and features. mxGraph is pure JavaScript, people just didn't see it because it's a very niche product.

We're creating a free online diagramming application based on it at Run that in IE 7 (or whatever FF existing in 2007), you'll probably find it loads and runs a great deal faster than Gliffy did.

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