The Artima Developer Community
Sponsored Link

Weblogs Forum
The adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland/2

5 replies on 1 page. Most recent reply: Sep 21, 2008 1:02 PM by Michele Simionato

Welcome Guest
  Sign In

Go back to the topic listing  Back to Topic List Click to reply to this topic  Reply to this Topic Click to search messages in this forum  Search Forum Click for a threaded view of the topic  Threaded View   
Previous Topic   Next Topic
Flat View: This topic has 5 replies on 1 page
Michele Simionato

Posts: 222
Nickname: micheles
Registered: Jun, 2008

The adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland/2 (View in Weblogs)
Posted: Sep 21, 2008 1:02 PM
Reply to this message Reply
Summary
Scheme is a language with many implementations and with few libraries. In this episode I will discuss the current situation and I will give some useful indication to the Scheme beginner.
Advertisement

About Scheme implementations

Scheme is a language with many implementations and with few libraries. In this episode I will discuss the current situation and I will give some useful indication to the Scheme beginner.

About Scheme implementations

One of the biggest problems for the Scheme beginner is the choice of the implementation. I did spend months on this issue and I have been on the verge of quitting many times. Since implementations are fairly different and incompatible if you make the "wrong" choice then you need to spend some effort to reconvert your code. Nowadays in theory this is less of an issue, since the R6RS report mandates an unique module system, but many implentations are still not supporting it. Moreover, in practice, in order to perform enterprise programming tasks you will always be forced to rely on implementation specific libraries such as database drivers and frameworks.

I am sure you will ask me what is the right implementation. The answer is that there is no right implementation: it depends on your needs. Every implementation has different advantages: there are implementations with a very good interoperability with C, others well integrated in Java or in .NET, others with a particularly good documentation, others with especially useful libraries, but there is no single implementation with all the features which is definitively superior to the others. You may use more than an implementation at the time, but you need to be careful in the choice of the libraries you are going to use, if you are interested in portability.

I cannot say I have tried all Scheme implementations (there are dozens and dozens of them) so take my obvervations cum grano salis. I did try PLT Scheme, Bigloo, Chicken, Guile, Ikarus and Larceny which are Open Source, multiplatform and free. Other major implementations are Chez Scheme (the interpreter, called Petit Scheme is free, the compiler is not) e and MIT Scheme (available with GPL licence) but I have not tried them and I cannot say anything. All the implementations I tried (except Guile) can be compiled and/or generate C code, and are usually faster than Python. Bigloo in particular is a "high performance compiler" optimized for floating point computations. PLT Scheme provides an interpreter, a compiler and an IDE called DrScheme: it is probably the biggest Scheme implementation out there and it is also probably the most used implementation and the one with most libraries.

Chicken is another big implementation: its major advantage is its author Felix Wilkelmann who literally perform miracles to support his users. I personally felt much more confortable in the Chicken mailing list than in the PLT one, but it was a few years ago and of course your mileage may vary. Anyway, Chicken is the R5RS-compatible implementation I like most since it has a very practical attitude: it is written by people working in the industry and not in the academy. Chicken is a compiler from Scheme to C and it is extremely easy to write wrappers for C/C++ libraries. Moreover, there are already hundreds of interesting libraries available. They are called eggs, just as in Python, and they work more a less in the same way. However, it must be noticed that Chicken had eggs years before Python and more rights to use the name ;-)

Guile is the Scheme version sponsored by the Free Software Foundation and it is used as scripting language for GIMP; it has been dreamed that Guile would become the main scripting language for the FSF applications and that it would have replaced Emacs Lisp in Emacs, but that never happened.

There are many other implementations I have not cited here, but my advice is to stick to one of the major implementations, unless you have some very special need. Notice, however, that in my experience, even the so-called major implementations cannot compete with Python for what concerns reliability and professionality. It is not just that there are much less libraries of use for the enterprise programmer (database, GUI, Web, etc), they are also more immature and with more bugs. This clearly has to do with the fact that the total number of users of Scheme (including all implementations) is order of magnitudes smaller than the number of users of Python. I must say however that the situation has improved a lot in recent years.

http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/scheme/guile-title.jpg

About the library problem

Libraries are the weak point of Scheme; there is simply no competition between the number of available libraries for Python and for Scheme. Let me consider just GUI libraries: in Python it is possible to use practically any existing GUI toolkit. The most used are Tk, GTK, Qt, WxPython, etc. If you are lucky, you can find a Scheme implementation supporting one of those toolkits, but certainly not all of them. There are Scheme implementations where it is easy to write wrappers to C/C++ libraries, easier than in Python: however, it is you who must write the wrapper, whereas in Python there is always somebody who did the dirty work for you, and the wrapper is kept up-to-date without any cost for you.

Clearly having a community split in at least a dozen of major implementation does not help. You see the same issue, to a minor degree, in Common Lisp too. Languages with a reference implementation like Perl (which actually has a single implementation) or Python and Ruby (with many implementations, but only one reference implementation) have a substantial advantage for the point of view of the enterprise programmer, since the community attention is focalized on a single spot and everybody benefits from the work of everybody.

The Scheme community tried to improve the situation in various ways. One problem is that the R5RS report is underspecified, so a mechanism for proposing extensions to the standard was invented, under the name of SRFI (Scheme Request For Implementation). To a Pythonista SRFIs will look a lot like PEPs (Python Enhancement Proposals). Everybody can submit a SRFI, i.e. a paper describing a library or a set of improvements to the language with the ambition of getting them into the standard. In principle the standard committee in charge of the next Revised Report would pick up from the best SRFIs for inclusion in the standard, but there is no obligation in this sense.

As a matter of fact, all existing implementations are making efforts to include the most important SRFIs, so that code using the SRFI libraries has better chances of being portable. Unfortunately, the R6RS editors have ignored many existing SRFIs, reinventing them in imcompatible ways and sometimes in inferior ways. The R6RS got a lots of critics and some Scheme implementations claimed that they will never be R6RS-compliant.

Every SRFI must be complemented by a working implementation, and this is the reason from the I at the end. The implementation must be as much portable as possible, therefore even if you are using a Scheme implementation which does not support the SRFI you are interested in natively, it is usually possible to port the SRFI with little effort. It is very important to study the most relevant SRFIs as soon as you learn Scheme, since if you want to write any practical application with it, you are going to need them.

http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/scheme/chicken3b.png

Additional difficulties

I did start playing with Scheme in 2003: at the time, I had installation problems with all the implementations I tried (except Guile which is typically pre-installed in Linux and Cygwin). Nowadays things are simpler: basically all implementations provide packages that can be installed on Linux systems via apt-get/yum or other package managers, together with Windows and OS X installers. One thing which is still giving problem is GNU readline: whereas usually the Python version you find pre-installed on your system is readline-enabled, most Scheme implementations do not enable readline by default for reason of license, so you have to download the readline-dev headers, edit the Makefile and recompile everything by hand. This may be annoying, so I suggest you to use rlwrap instead, which can be installed with apt-get in Debian/Ubuntu or with``fink`` on the Mac.

rlwrap is a beatiful utility which can add readline support to each command line program (such as an interactive Scheme interpreter) that does not support it. It is enough to type rlwrap <scheme-executable> and your REPL magically gains readline line editing, persistent history and completion; moreover, you get parens matching for free, which is invaluable in Scheme programming. I make heavy usage of all these features.

By the way, I see now that I have used the term REPL (Read-Eval-Print-Loop) which may be unknown to a few readers; REPL is just the Lisp name for what is called the interactive interpreter or console in the Python world, the one with the >>> prompt. In Scheme the REPL is very well integrated with Emacs, so that you can position the cursor right after a closing parenthesis and send the corresponding expression to the REPL with CTRL-x-e (in Python you are forced to select the expression esplicitely instead, so that the user experience is not great as with Scheme). Of course you need a good Scheme mode: the default one is not so great and I use quack.el by Neil Van Dyke. The Emacs support for Lispish languages is excellent (which is not surprising at all, being Emacs written in a Lisp dialect) and I definitely suggest you to use Emacs as your IDE for Scheme. Of course, lots of people do not like Emacs, so you could use VI instead, or even a specialized Scheme IDE such as DrScheme provided by PLT Scheme. The important thing is to have support for parens matching.

Unfortunately, there is no equivalent to IPython and there will never be, since the language does not have support for docstrings, nor the introspection facilities of Python: you would need to switch to Common Lisp with SLIME to find something comparable or even better.

Generally speaking (with some exception) the support you can get for what concerns specific issues of a library is inferior to the support you can get with Python. The comp.lang.scheme newsgroup is friendly and can help you a lot if you ask how to implement a given algorithm or how a subtle Scheme construct works, but you should take in account that the number of posters in comp.lang.scheme is perhaps the 5% of the number of posters in comp.lang.python. On the other hand, the Schemers are highly esperienced and competent people, so you can get sound advice there.

All the Scheme implementations I tried are inferior to Python for what concerns introspection and debugging capabilities. Tracebacks and error messages are not very informative. Sometimes, you cannot even get the number of the line where the error occurred; the reason is that Scheme code can be macro-generated and the notion of line number may become foggy. On the other hand, I must say that in the five years I have being using Scheme (admittedly for toying and not for large projects) I have seen steady improvement in this area.

To show you the difference between a Scheme traceback and a Python traceback, here is an example with PLT Scheme, the most complete Scheme implementation and perhaps the one with the best error management:

$rlwrap mzscheme
Welcome to MzScheme v4.1 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2008 PLT Scheme Inc.
> (define (inv x) (/ 1 x))
> (inv 0)
/: division by zero

 === context ===
/usr/local/collects/scheme/private/misc.ss:68:7
http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/scheme/plt-green.jpg

As you see, there is not much information: in particular the information about the name of the function where the error occurred (inv) is lost and the line number/char number refers to the read-eval-print-loop code. You may contrast that with the Python traceback:

$ python
Python 2.5.1c1 (r251c1:54694M, Apr  5 2007, 12:45:14)
[GCC 4.0.1 (Apple Computer, Inc. build 5367)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> def inv(x): return 1/x
...
>>> inv(0)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in inv
ZeroDivisionError: integer division or modulo by zero

I should mention however that PLT is meant to be run inside its own IDE, DrScheme. DrScheme highlights the line with the error and includes a debugger. However such functionalities are not that common in the Scheme world and in my own experience it is much more difficult to debug a Scheme program than a Python program.

The documentation system is also very limited as compared to Python: there is no equivalent to pydoc, no help functionality from the REPL, the concept of docstring is missing from the language. The road to Scheme is long and uphill; from the point of view of the tools and reliability of the implementations you will be probably better off with Common Lisp. However, in my personal opinion, even Common Lisp is by far less productive than Python for the typical usage of an enterprise programmer.

My interest here is different: I am not looking for a silver bullet, a language more productive than Python. My aim is to find a language from which a Pythonista can learn something. And certainly from Scheme we can learn a lot. But you will see what in the next episodes. See you soon!


Grant Rettke

Posts: 23
Nickname: grettke
Registered: Nov, 2008

Re: The adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland/2 Posted: Nov 2, 2008 2:37 AM
Reply to this message Reply
If you want bracket balancing, you might want to try out Paredit for Emacs:

http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.el

Grant Rettke

Posts: 23
Nickname: grettke
Registered: Nov, 2008

Re: The adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland/2 Posted: Nov 2, 2008 2:38 AM
Reply to this message Reply
In DrScheme, place the cursor on the item for which you would like to see the documentation and hit F1.

PLT's document system in 4.x is excellent, even better then their excellent document in 3.x :).

Grant Rettke

Posts: 23
Nickname: grettke
Registered: Nov, 2008

Re: The adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland/2 Posted: Nov 2, 2008 2:39 AM
Reply to this message Reply
DrScheme's debugger and macro-expander are very nice.

I've heard the same thing about Chez.

Eli Barzilay

Posts: 3
Nickname: elibarzila
Registered: Nov, 2008

Re: The adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland/2 Posted: Nov 3, 2008 6:43 AM
Reply to this message Reply
Did you actually try to *use* the mzscheme repl?
* Using errortrace in MzScheme gives you the same detail level that you get in DrScheme (= much more than the Python backtrace); errors in source files will have line numbers.
* There is a new documentation system with PLT v4, which goes beyond pydoc and docstrings.
* You say "no help functionality from the REPL"; did you try to type help?

Michele Simionato

Posts: 222
Nickname: micheles
Registered: Jun, 2008

Re: The adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland/2 Posted: Nov 3, 2008 7:37 AM
Reply to this message Reply
> Did you actually try to *use* the mzscheme repl?
> * Using errortrace in MzScheme gives you the same detail
> level that you get in DrScheme (= much more than the
> Python backtrace); errors in source files will have line
> numbers.
> * There is a new documentation system with PLT v4, which
> goes beyond pydoc and docstrings.
> * You say "no help functionality from the REPL"; did you
> try to type help?

Eli, I am sure you are right, but the article was written before PLT v4 (remember, it is a translation of the Italian one published many months ago). Anyway, here is what I get with the PLT I have installed on my box in the office:

$ mzscheme
Welcome to MzScheme v372 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2007 PLT Scheme Inc.
> help
reference to undefined identifier: help
> (help)
reference to undefined identifier: help
> (help syntax-rules)
stdin::18: syntax-rules: bad syntax in: syntax-rules

I should have checked what was new in PLT 4.0, but frankly I was lazy and I was relying on my readers correcting me: after all, this is just a blog post. I will have to correct that sentence, anyway.

Flat View: This topic has 5 replies on 1 page
Topic: Is There An Equivalent of WordPress for Podcasting? Previous Topic   Next Topic Topic: A new course for the


Sponsored Links



Google
  Web Artima.com   

Copyright © 1996-2014 Artima, Inc. All Rights Reserved. - Privacy Policy - Terms of Use - Advertise with Us