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dear Moderator. Please block homework requests

26 replies on 2 pages. Most recent reply: Nov 28, 2002 2:14 AM by Bill Venners

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Matt Gerrans

Posts: 1153
Nickname: matt
Registered: Feb, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 12, 2002 3:41 PM
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There is nothing at all wrong with answering homework questions, especially in pseudocode, as you suggest, or when it is specific questions about a homework problem.

What we are discussing here is people offering filthy lucre for homework. Paying for or getting paid to do homework assignments is what's unethical.

Anil Philip

Posts: 19
Nickname: anilphilip
Registered: Nov, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 13, 2002 8:19 AM
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It is not about whether the question is a homework assignment or not - and there is nothing wrong with working for money - I do, I have a job!.

It is about cheating, but let us lay that aside.

It is about the person simply not wanting to learn the material, grapple with it and get answers to genuine sticking points in his design or code. Instead he is asking someone else to do his entire work for him!

The people trying to "help" should instead say,"read the topic on collections from the java tutorial at java.sun.com and then attempt it again" or, "please come up with a design to solve the problem in pseudocode and we shall critique it online"

This is a serious problem that carries over to jobs.





> There is nothing at all wrong with answering homework
> questions, especially in pseudocode, as you suggest, or
> when it is specific questions about a homework problem.
>
> What we are discussing here is people offering filthy
> lucre for homework. Paying for or getting paid to do
> homework assignments is what's unethical.

Dante T. Salvador

Posts: 19
Nickname: anteng
Registered: Nov, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 13, 2002 8:36 AM
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dear anil

have you visit the java forum at sun. try visiting there. u wil find some student who are try to get answer to d'r homework. what the guys doing d'r, they insulted some student and they became angry in programming. some visit here and find some solution.

i was a teacher of C++, became a programmer and now i'm trying to learn java.

if the student want to learn java specially oop and they are new to progrmaming(meaning no exp. in any programming language), it is very hard from them. i know this because i was a student of CS.

so as much as possible i will try to help to get started in programming. and i think and hopelly they start reading some books.

dante

Dante T. Salvador

Posts: 19
Nickname: anteng
Registered: Nov, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 13, 2002 8:47 AM
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dear anil,

i'll give you an example

in this forum, go here:

http://java.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fartima.com%2Fjava%2Fanswers%2Findex.html

then go to sun:

http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jsp?forum=31&thread=323488

Anil Philip

Posts: 19
Nickname: anilphilip
Registered: Nov, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 21, 2002 7:05 AM
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could not get to the first link

> dear anil,
>
> i'll give you an example
>
> in this forum, go here:
>
> http://java.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2
> %2Fartima.com%2Fjava%2Fanswers%2Findex.html
>
> then go to sun:
>
> http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jsp?forum=31&thread=323488

twisty

Posts: 22
Nickname: twisty
Registered: Nov, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 21, 2002 3:27 PM
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It would be nice if they actually thanked someone sometime instead.

Matt Gerrans

Posts: 1153
Nickname: matt
Registered: Feb, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 21, 2002 5:01 PM
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What is this an example of?

Tal

Posts: 4
Nickname: turk
Registered: Nov, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 25, 2002 10:34 AM
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It is fair enough that some people do cheat, but like myself some people do not enjoy programming. I am studying for a degree in computer science (second year), I want to be a systems analyst or problem solver, i.e. design concepts and customer work. I have to program as part of my course, though it will have nothing to do with my job. I have tried to learn and enjoy programming, but I dont, in fact I hate it, almost to the point of tears it's just soemthing I have to do to pass. Just becuase people are asking for help on assignments doesnt necesarilly mean they're cheating their whole way through college or university, it may be just something they need to pass. If they block homework requests, what is really gonna happen? People will just ask their questions in a different way, it isnt going to suddenly cause a surge of people joining the forum to discuss ideas and share their thoughts, the forum just wont be used as much.

It sounds as though some people have forgot how hard programming can be to grasp especially when it doesnt interest you, but can decide your whole future!

Turk

Matt Gerrans

Posts: 1153
Nickname: matt
Registered: Feb, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 25, 2002 11:42 AM
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> It is fair enough that some people do cheat, but like
> myself some people do not enjoy programming.

Actually, the point is, it isn't fair when people cheat.

> I am studying
> for a degree in computer science (second year), I want to
> be a systems analyst or problem solver, i.e. design
> concepts and customer work. I have to program as part of
> my course, though it will have nothing to do with my job.
> I have tried to learn and enjoy programming, but I dont,
> in fact I hate it, almost to the point of tears it's just
> soemthing I have to do to pass. Just becuase people are
> asking for help on assignments doesnt necesarilly mean
> they're cheating their whole way through college or
> university, it may be just something they need to pass.

So as long as you are not cheating on every class, it is okay to cheat on some or even most of them? Interesting logic.

> If they block homework requests, what is really gonna happen?
> People will just ask their questions in a different way,
> it isnt going to suddenly cause a surge of people joining
> the forum to discuss ideas and share their thoughts, the
> forum just wont be used as much.

Huh? I don't understand this statement. But I think I understand what you were trying to say.

> It sounds as though some people have forgot how hard
> programming can be to grasp especially when it doesnt
> interest you, but can decide your whole future!

Oh, so if something is hard, it is okay to cheat.

It seems like you are missing the point of your education. The people who designed the curriculum obviously think knowledge of programming is important.

What knowledge do you think a "systems analyst" or "problem solver" needs to have? Are they just visionaries (just like Micheal Jackson), who shouldn't be burdened with reality, concrete knowledge or ethics?

twisty

Posts: 22
Nickname: twisty
Registered: Nov, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 27, 2002 3:30 PM
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At least the homework questions actually get answered here. Unlike some of the better questions unfortunately.

Matthew Pica

Posts: 5
Nickname: mrpica05
Registered: Nov, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 27, 2002 10:12 PM
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I am brand new to this forum, and i am a sophmore at Iona College, a CS major, and love to program. I myself will not cheat, and wont help people cheat.

If a fellow classmate who doesnt know how to do something as well as me asks for the answer i dont give it to them straight out. I instead help them to derive it on their own. For example, if when i read through the part of the code that is giving them problems and can identify it i might suggest they look in the java class library in a particular object. Or if they dont know how to start a code i might help them write down what they need to find in english, then have them from their try and put it into code.

Yet even the teacher needs to become the student, no one knows everything and that is the point of these forums. I agree 100% with all that said "cheating is unethical" it is and no one can deny it. Yet when a student asks a question on an assignment there are two forms it comes in: one is that they just ask for someone to write it for them. two is that they post some coding they have written and ask why it doesnt produce the outcome that is desired. I myself have just done the latter of the two, yet im not cheating. I gave an honest effort, trying many differant variations to solve it but couldnt, so now i ask for assistance. Not everyone is in this forum just to pass a class, there are many who do come here(this would include me) for the advice and expertise of the vet prog`ers. If you dont like the fact that students ask straight up for the answer, then dont respond to their post. It doesnt hurt anyone to see a post with zero replys. But why deny the student who wants to learn, and is asking for help the help they deserve.

Think of it this way, no one is forcing anyone to reply to a post. Also no one is forcing anyone to come here. I dont want to make any enemies here, i hope to help people in the future when i to am good enough to do so, and hope i can get help when needed from here.

Just think about what i have said, and if you agree super, if not then hit reply and perhaps i can clarify a point or an idea i posed.

Regards,
Matthew

Bill Venners

Posts: 2284
Nickname: bv
Registered: Jan, 2002

Re: dear Moderator. Please block homework requests Posted: Nov 28, 2002 2:14 AM
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> If a fellow classmate who doesnt know how to do something
> as well as me asks for the answer i dont give it to them
> straight out. I instead help them to derive it on their
> own. For example, if when i read through the part of the
> code that is giving them problems and can identify it i
> might suggest they look in the java class library in a
> particular object. Or if they dont know how to start a
> code i might help them write down what they need to find
> in english, then have them from their try and put it into
> code.
>
Well said. It is not cheating to ask for help on homework, and I encourage students to do so in this forum.

I do encourage students to post specific questions on in-progress attempts at completing the homework, when possible. I know some people may feel they don't know how to begin an assignment, and in that case, I think they should feel free to ask for help getting started.

I suggest answerers to "help me get started questions" leave some work for the student to do rather than posting the complete solution, because that will be more educational for the student. I think the most important ingredient to learning programming is actually doing hands-on writing code. I've seen a lot of people answering questions like this in the forum. Sometimes the answer is in pseudo-code. Matt I think one time wrote the whole solution but in Python, leaving it to the student to translate it to Java. Recently I saw a solution posted in which several key methods were left blank for the student to fill in. That's the kind of thing that I think helps students learn programming and get a good grade at the same time.

The problem that I was really concerned about recently was not students asking for help, which has been going on for a long time. Getting help from fellow programmers is the purpose of this forum, whether you are a student or employed professional, so that's no problem. What started showing up recently was offers to pay money to people who complete an assignment for them. The first such post showed up recently and then others started showing up often. I didn't want it to become a tradition to use this forum as a marketplace for buying homework solutions, because that is cheating. So I decided on a policy of deleting homework-for-pay requests.

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