Registered: Mar, 2006
Re: Marketing Python - An Idea Whose Time Has Come
Posted: Mar 4, 2006 5:58 AM
> For everyone crying out for Guido to take a stand on "one
> true framework" it should be considered that it isn't his
> place to do so.
It may not be his place to do so, but there are certain things you can't change. (At the risk of insulting Guido by comparing him with a professional athlete...) Just as people expect their local sports hero to be a role model, tech people look for the opinions of their leaders. You can ask people to think for themselves, rather than consider the opinion of leaders, but as you say "fat chance".
Frankly, I am your case study. I was reflecting on how I stumbled across this discussion. Here's how: I'm about to take on the challenge of learning something new. It's a substantial investment of my time. Just as Guido mentioned a few weeks ago - he wanted a framework for a project, and looked for advice on getting started. Same here. I want to learn ONE framework very well.
Now if there are 80 frameworks  (maybe more if you include RoR, etc), how do I choose ONE to learn VERY well? I could conduct 80 experiments and "think for myself". Or I can narrow the field substantially by trying to choose one with momentum - after all, no one wants to invest in learning a dead product.
So formulate a short list, and use the experts' opinions to select the one.
My short list a few weeks ago was, in this order: Zope, Django, TurboGears, and Ruby on Rails. So I googled looking for Guido's name and each of the frameworks. I found his blog, and formulated an opinion (that Guido prefers Django) based on what I read. Right or wrong, that's what I got out of it.
My point is that PEOPLE WILL DO THIS. Formulate opinions, repeat what they believe (sometimes in bold), and make decisions based on those beliefs. I am a real-life case-in-point. So whether or not it's Guido's place to do so, people like me (right or wrong) are watching. It's not that I am lazy or won't think for myself. It's that I want to spend my time wisely and learn ONE framework really well. To learn a bunch of frameworks well enough to make an informed comparison (without relying on experts) would be a waste of my time. (Now you could argue that Guido's the wrong expert to be relying on, just like it's wrong to look to Professional Athletes for your morality or gym shoe choice. But it seemed natural to me to look to Guido, so I'm sure that others will, as well.)
It'd be great, yeah, if some unbiased reliable resource compared all frameworks thoroughly, and told me that given my project-type, expertise, and feelings toward product momentum, here's the best framework. But no one is doing that, as far as I can tell. So we turn to the respected leaders. (e.g. if Google backs Python, it's worth looking at. If Guido backed Zope by being employed there, it's worth looking at.) In absence of public statements, people make stuff up: "Guido left Zope, so maybe Zope 2 and 3 aren't all their cracked up to be." I was actually floored to see that in Guido's recent search for a suitable framework for a project, Zope wasn't even on the radar screen! It lost MAJOR points right there - here's an ex-employee, a respected leader, and he's looking elsewhere to technologies that he knows less about - that's a major red flag (like I said, people (like me) make stuff up!)
My conclusion, incidentally, after reading numerous posts is that my short list is now Django and RoR. I eliminated Zope and TurboGears specifically because I "read between the lines" that Guido prefers Django to TurboGears and Zope. All it really took was his Django vs. Cheeta post of 31-Jan , and a few references that he didn't want to use XML as a language (which - making stuff up here - are probably reasons why Zope and TurboGears are not good choices).
My point is that in absence of formal statements, people will try to read between the lines, and make decisions on it. Guido prefers Django. There - see I just made it up. That's the conclusion I drew after researching it. So momentum is in the Django camp by an industry leader. That's the tipping point. I will now compare Django with RoR for use on this project. Django will most likely win, because I know and love Python, and feel that learning the framework will be easier without having to learn the language too.
For the benefit of everyone else doing Google searches like I did, maybe they'll locate this thread if I mention once again the opinion / conclusion that I arrived at: Guido prefers Django. And if you read in on the internet, it must be true, right?
see Guido's post timestamped Jan 31, 2006 6:01 PM