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Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

103 replies on 7 pages. Most recent reply: Oct 7, 2008 12:42 AM by Andrew Binstock

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Flat View: This topic has 103 replies on 7 pages [ « | 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 | » ]

Bill Venners

Posts: 2284
Nickname: bv
Registered: Jan, 2002

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 21, 2008 3:15 PM

> The title was clearly designed to be provocative,
> presumably to increase the number of eyeballs viewing this
> article and thus increase ad revenue.
>
I highly doubt this. Bruce Eckel does not gain in any way from increased ad revenue. Ad revenues support Artima, not Bruce. Bruce is a guest blogger here. He doesn't get paid, nor does he have to pay, to blog here. Besides, I can assure you there's no way the title of this blog will have any impact to ad revenue.

> But that's a pretty standard technique in the publishing
> industry and has been for hundreds of years.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism
>
That's a very strong accusation, and I think it is quite off the mark. Yes, a provocative title may help bring in more traffic, primarily if it sets off more heated debate here in the forums, but I don't think the title is that inappropriate to the content of the blog post. I reread the blog post just now, and I think that although it has some biting criticism of desktop Java, all that criticism, though subjective, are conclusions that could reasonably be made from the facts of history.

My observation has been that desktop Java took a bit of a back seat to enterprise Java for a long time at Sun. Now Sun seems to be trying to focus a more attention and resources on desktop Java. My impression of Bruce's post was that he was simply asking if perhaps it is too late. Does anyone care about desktop Java at this point? It isn't such an unreasonable question.

Kondwani Mkandawire

Posts: 530
Nickname: spike
Registered: Aug, 2004

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 21, 2008 10:52 PM

> Could someone with experience developing with the Eclipse
> Rich Client Platform, the Netbeans Platform, or the Spring
> Rich Client Platform describe for us how well they soothe
> the problems and complexities of Java UI development?
>
> Thanks.

Not quite sure about the Eclipse and Netbeans Platform, but in my past job we used Spring Rich Client, the screens were standardized and the architectural team had worked to wrap the Spring Rich Client framework with our own framework - to support the standardized screens (An XP environment hence no one owned code and we could add to the Generic Screens as long as you wrote test cases that passed). And believe it or not, 2 or 3 lines of code will get you a screen and its action all sorted (A Screen's form would bind to a DTO via Java Generics).

Was really neat and effortless. 2 to 3 lines.

Though there were some restrictions I never did figure out whether this was based on the way our framework wrapped Spring-Rich or it was Spring Rich itself. E.g. Dynamic Screens were a bummer to code.

sanjib bisoyi

Posts: 1
Nickname: sanjibkb
Registered: Jul, 2008

i need help regarding client server program

Posted: Jul 22, 2008 12:14 PM

i need help regarding client server program.i am writing client server program for getting system information(like RAM host name,version etc...)that one i can getProperty("") but i need some thing like dsn name ,host name ,and in client side if i will type give me tomcat vession installed in that server.so how i will get it and how i will pass it to server.

Can some one help me

Regards,
Sanjib

Achilleas Margaritis

Posts: 674
Nickname: achilleas
Registered: Feb, 2005

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 24, 2008 6:55 AM

Me and my company greatly care about desktop Java, because we use it to make enterprise or commercial applications:

-book readers for various categories of documents; our clients require more interaction than that Acrobat Reader provides. The documents are highly technical.

-real-time defense applications (my specialty).

-business applications running through ULC (Ultra Light Client).

We also use many Java desktop apps:

-Alienware RFID-related products

-PCVS

-IDEs

All and all, Java is used quite heavily on the desktop, even if it's not as visible as C++.

Pavel Stepanek

Posts: 2
Nickname: stepec
Registered: Jul, 2008

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 24, 2008 7:30 AM

Thanks for this tip, I will try it, because I knew only about Joone.

Ian Channing

Posts: 1
Nickname: icc97
Registered: Jul, 2008

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 25, 2008 3:51 AM

Solar Accounts does look very nice. I am interested in how you went about getting native Windows buttons into the interface. It should be noted that it looks like you had to remove the portability of Java to get a nicer looking interface given that Solar Accounts only works on Windows (http://www.solaraccounts.co.uk/faq.php).

Carson Gross

Posts: 153
Nickname: cgross
Registered: Oct, 2006

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 25, 2008 3:56 PM

> There never will be one precisely because there *can't* be one.

But what about smalltalk?

_ducks_

Cheers,
Carson

Casper Bang

Posts: 12
Nickname: mrmorris
Registered: Nov, 2007

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 27, 2008 8:22 AM

Sun screwed that one up a long time ago and to this day, it's veeery common to have to explain to Java developers what a component model is and why Java doesn't have one. It's sad really how Sun seems unable to follow through on most things, instead they invent new languages and write silly white papers (http://java.sun.com/docs/white/delegates.html)

Stephen Graham

Posts: 5
Nickname: sgraham
Registered: Jan, 2006

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 27, 2008 9:13 PM

> Personally, I think it would be proper for you
> to reveal what kind of financial relationship you have
> with Adobe if you have one.

I absolutely agree with this. I'm really disappointed that Bruce - an author whose opinion I've respected for many years, has resorted to this kind or writing - which seems to me to be an advertisement for Flex unconvincingly presented as a serious discussion about the merits of Swing.

I doubt that Bruce expected such a strong response from the Swing community. There is clearly is a LOT of work going on in Swing - heck I've been working as a Swing developer for 8 years - there's definitely no shortage of work.

The airline industry in particular has embraced Swing in a very big way - there are huge Swing applications running all sorts of functionality.

The overriding response I get from my clients about Swing is that they're grateful to find someone who has these skills. They usually say, "the server guys looked at it, but they found it too hard".

I personally don't agree with the opinion about Swing being difficult to learn. I suspect the difficulty is actually caused by the lack of frameworks to demonstrate architectural best practice. Web applications are a lot easier in this regard.

I find Swing to be the most intuitive and expressive GUI toolkit I've ever worked with - but that might not mean a whole lot considering my background is C++ Windows programming :-)

Bruce Eckel

Posts: 875
Nickname: beckel
Registered: Jun, 2003

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 28, 2008 1:38 PM

> I doubt that Bruce expected such a strong response from
> the Swing community. There is clearly is a LOT of work
> going on in Swing - heck I've been working as a Swing
> developer for 8 years - there's definitely no shortage of
> work.

People haven't been talking about it, so I did want to know. And I am very interested to hear about all the projects people are doing with it. I was particularly interested in the state of Java FX, although I note that virtually all the responders talked about Swing and not FX.

Also, I honestly do find Flex to be better designed for building UIs. It has a real component model, for one thing, native support for events (which makes a big difference) and it was designed around creating UIs, so my experience with it has been much better than Swing. That doesn't mean people can't do useful work with Swing or get value out of it. In many cases, it's easier just to stay with a single language (Java) for your whole project, for various reasons. Personally, I find it's useful to utilize the most powerful tool for each part of the job you're trying to solve, and for UIs, I've found Flex to be the most powerful tool. If you find yourself more productive with Swing (or at least, productive enough for your needs), then that's the logical thing for you to use.

Kondwani Mkandawire

Posts: 530
Nickname: spike
Registered: Aug, 2004

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 29, 2008 12:17 AM

Din't really read the whole thread initially but taking a closer look at the adjectives used to describe Flex and the negative descriptions surrounding Swing it really does beg the questions relating to what Bruce's affiliation with Adobe is.

Upon reading some of the comments and revising statements like: "Swing programming has never been easy" and "I continue to find it to be the best all-around solution for UIs", it does become apparent that there is a bias towards one UI tool over the other - granted when mentioning Flex Bruce carefully uses the word "I" to reflect personal opinion.

To counter that and as a matter of opinion, I have never understood why people claim Swing Dev. is complex.

Once you get past the Layout Managers (a problem which can be solved by using the JGoodies stuff), I think everything is pretty simple.

I must also commend the statement: "But I don't know of any general desktop apps in Java, especially ones that people pay for".

Very carefully worded, as people have already listed a few examples of their own to counter this statement. I have done work in Retail (writing POS's) for my former employer in Swing for major clients including a major fashion outlet based in the UK - controlling millions of Sterling in Sales (naturally this was paid for as it was used at more than 60 locations), have written Thick Clients in a Framework that wraps Swing for Clients in Supply-Chain that use the software to manage Billions of Dollars. As I'm at the bottom of the chain (Developer), I'm not sure what they pay, but I'm sure they pay quite a bundle to use this Swing-based software. Kind of adding to the point someone already made is the fact that I don't think the Client cared what the underlying technology was.

Its sad that you are so entrenched in the Java community yet are not aware the global relevance of one of its basic libraries.

Mateusz Fiolka

Posts: 2
Nickname: jau
Registered: Dec, 2007

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 29, 2008 1:17 AM

IMHO there is such a language for JVM. It is called Scala. No good tools at the moment, but everything is going into good direction. IDEA should have nice Scala support in version 8. I'm an Eclipse programmer but only for this feature I'll buy IDEA.

> Well, I'll be the first to argue that Java is *not* the
> right solution. It happens to be the best solution for
> large projects for the time being (imo). For instance, I
> would kill to use C# 3.x if it were a JVM language. In
> fact C# or something very very close to it is something
> that we should all be screaming for regarding Java's
> future. With heavy use of type inference and proper
> closures it has most of the benefits of a dynamic
> language, but all with a solid static type system and way
> more.
>
> Unfortunately Java seems to be taking a the Spruce Goose
> approach to language design. The BGGA closures proposal is
> the latest folly. But, hey, what am I whining about; we're
> building our own language, coming this fall to a website
> near you. And then I'll be at the other end of the
> criticism...

Lauren Bish

Posts: 1
Nickname: devdude
Registered: Jul, 2008

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 29, 2008 11:10 AM

I haven't read the whole thread so excuse me if I repeat anything that has already been stated. I speak as someone who has been writing mostly desktop apps in Swing for almost ten years. None of these were general purpose shrink wrap type apps (like word processors, spreadsheets), but rather vertical market cross-platform apps where *proper* use of Swing excels compared to any other framework (IMO). One doesn't have to look too far to find general purpose Swing apps though - Open Office is one (although it doesn't compare well to MS Office IMO).

I don't think that it is very relevant to compare Swing to Flex - they target two different platforms; Flex targets the web client and Swing targets the desktop. How many desktop apps do you see developed in Flex??

In my experience and opinion there have been a number of reasons Java has not made much progress on the desktop:

1) The footprint of the JVM. This, and the early FUD/branching attempts by MS also helped mortally injure Java in the browser. Sun has been making progress lately with trimming down the VM, but it is still much larger and much less ubiquitous than Flash/Flex or JavaScript.

2) A lot of consumers (and even some security "experts") confuse JavaScript with Java, then they hear about the dangers of JavaScript and don't want Java installed on their computers. I am still encountering this, even from IT departments that should know better.

3) Swing developers themselves have hurt Java on the desktop. The devs used non-standard look & feels because they could, not because they should (it is rare that you need to use a non-standard L&F), and Sun didn't help in this regard by promoting these look & feels. Many of the Swing apps I have seen, such as Open Office and even the latest version of Netbeans have a clunky feel and some outright bugs in the UI. This is not a problem with Swing or Java, but rather the incompetence and sloppiness of the developers. As already mentioned, a lot of users see this and associate it with Java/Swing instead of with the developers.

Sun has done some improvements with the native look & feels, and needs to do some more. Sun also needs to stress to developers to use the native L&Fs unless there is a compelling reason not to - I don't see that happening anytime soon.

The clunkiness and design of Swing is very low on my list of problems with Java on the desktop. Swing is not perfect, and neither is Java, but I much prefer both to the alternatives.

I'll probably think of some other issues, but the big one right now is that many apps are going online as web client apps. Swing applets inside of the browser are usually not the answer for many of these apps, although for some proper use of Swing in an applet might the right answer. The early improper use of applets in web sites also hurt Swing/Java.

I am using GWT and not Flex for web clients for a number of reasons:

a) I can develop in one language on both client and server. This means my experience and knowledge transfer ratio from Swing and Java is high. I can also handle localization and accessibility issues in a better fashion. GWT is very similar to Swing in many respects.

b) No plugin required.

c) Very efficient (in both size and performance) and more ubiquitous than Flash/Flex. Open source and cross platform.

Kondwani Mkandawire

Posts: 530
Nickname: spike
Registered: Aug, 2004

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 30, 2008 12:00 AM

to
> find general purpose Swing apps though - Open Office is
> one (although it doesn't compare well to MS Office IMO).

Not a hundred percent sure but isn't Open Office written mainly in C/C++ with only bits written in Java?

Alexis Moussine-Pouchkine

Posts: 2
Nickname: alexismp
Registered: Feb, 2006

Re: Does Anyone Really Care About Desktop Java?

Posted: Jul 30, 2008 1:45 AM

Bruce, re: Swing vs. JavaFX, even the preview SDK for FX isn't out yet, so you can't really complain people talk about what they know and do best at this point, can you?

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