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When Agile Projects Go Bad

20 replies on 2 pages. Most recent reply: Dec 11, 2008 6:17 PM by Raoul Duke

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James Watson

Posts: 2024
Nickname: watson
Registered: Sep, 2005

Re: When Agile Projects Go Bad Posted: Dec 2, 2008 7:47 AM
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> "I'm one of the authors of the manifesto, so if I say
> something 'weird,' they can't tell me I don't understand
> Agile."
>
> This seems like a claim to privileged knowledge, similar
> to a prophet claiming direct revelation...what we wrote is
> authoritative with exception to whatever we think at the
> moment, because we are the authors.

That's one way to look at it. Another way would be that if you believe strongly in Agile, then you have taken this author's advice very seriously. If that author then tells you something else on the same subject, rationally, you should either consider this new advice and/or question why you trusted the author in the first place.

I could argue that treating the author's words as fully separate from the author implies that author acted as some sort of non-active medium to a higher truth.

James Watson

Posts: 2024
Nickname: watson
Registered: Sep, 2005

Re: When Agile Projects Go Bad Posted: Dec 2, 2008 7:56 AM
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> This bit of the manifest is potentially troublesome:
>
> "Welcome changing requirements, even late in
> development."
>
> Sometimes an apparently small change in requirements can
> require an arbitrarily large change in the code that
> addresses it. So in mathematics changing "min" to "max"
> can mean starting again from the beginning (or even giving
> up --- no realistic algorithm exists). Requirements of
> this kind need to be established early and later changes
> may not be realistic.

If the requirements are fundamentally incorrect, there's no reason to continue to implement them. Minor changes here are there are of course not necessarily worth it but if you are solving the wrong problem, saying that the requirements are set serves no real purpose. If you aren't going to change direction, you might as well cut your losses and kill the project.

I don't think that Agile encourages foolishly changing things on a whim. I think that it recognizes that changes are necessary and that they have costs that must be weighed against the benefits. If a big change is made, then it will cause delays, cost increases, and/or dropped features. It's not a free pass.

Kay Schluehr

Posts: 302
Nickname: schluehk
Registered: Jan, 2005

Re: When Agile Projects Go Bad Posted: Dec 3, 2008 5:50 AM
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> "I'm one of the authors of the manifesto, so if I say
> something 'weird,' they can't tell me I don't understand
> Agile."
>
> This seems like a claim to privileged knowledge, similar
> to a prophet claiming direct revelation...what we wrote is
> authoritative with exception to whatever we think at the
> moment, because we are the authors.

This wouldn't be much of a problem of course if "agile" wasn't just another word for "good".

Raoul Duke

Posts: 127
Nickname: raoulduke
Registered: Apr, 2006

Re: When Agile Projects Go Bad Posted: Dec 8, 2008 3:11 PM
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> "Welcome changing requirements, even late in
> development."

here's one take on it: 'look, bub, the requirements just bloody well changedm, and if we don't change our code likewise, we no longer have a customer. which will perhaps have a not-unsubtle impact upon you pay check? ya know? get with the programme, already!'

[i'm not saying i think that is a great situation.]

Mark Thornton

Posts: 275
Nickname: mthornton
Registered: Oct, 2005

Re: When Agile Projects Go Bad Posted: Dec 9, 2008 12:53 AM
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> here's one take on it: 'look, bub, the requirements just
> bloody well changedm, and if we don't change our code
> likewise, we no longer have a customer. which will perhaps
> have a not-unsubtle impact upon you pay check? ya know?
> get with the programme, already!'

Sometimes the answer is "fine, but it will take at least two months". On one occasion I proved that a requirement was impossible to implement.

Raoul Duke

Posts: 127
Nickname: raoulduke
Registered: Apr, 2006

Re: When Agile Projects Go Bad Posted: Dec 11, 2008 6:17 PM
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> Sometimes the answer is "fine, but it will take at least
> two months". On one occasion I proved that a requirement
> was impossible to implement.

i heartily concur. (i've also been a manager who told folks 'no, everybody is basically smoking crack with this deadline, it will go out to XYZ instead' and been mostly right oh well.) people are so full of it when they make their estimates, they are more often than not wrong on the side of being too short. and/or unforseen things come along to blow out the schedule. immovable object, irresistible force, wailing, gnashing of teeth, ???, profit!

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