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How Much Profit is Enough?

52 replies on 4 pages. Most recent reply: Sep 12, 2005 1:37 PM by oswaldosalcedo

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Jean-Louis Ardoint

Posts: 3
Nickname: jojo
Registered: Jul, 2003

Re: How Much Profit is Enough? Posted: Jul 10, 2003 11:22 AM
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"Socialism is a dirty word because it is a dirty concept. It is only the left's overwhelming superiority in progaganda in Europe and other less advanced societies that makes people believe otherwise."

It seems you're sure of that USA is the most advanced society in the world. Maybe you could take a look at the UN human development index:

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2002/en/indicator/indicator.cfm?File=indic_283_1_1.html

As you can there are even countries that are considered as being more developped than USA, and a large number that is not so far beyond. Also, if you take a look at the poverty index:

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2002/en/indicator/indicator.cfm?File=indic_301_2_2.html

You'll see that USA is the worst OECD country in this matter.

Please open your mind a little bit, and you'll see that there are other human beings on the Earth, and that the huge problems like poverty, AIDS, environmental issues won't be solved by big corporations and less rules, but could be by governments (if they were really people representative) and fair rules. Just an example, do you think it is fair that people are dying of AIDS in third world countries because they are not allowed to produce generic medication to protect the profit of the big pharmaceutical corporations?

Jordan Zimmerman

Posts: 23
Nickname: jordanz
Registered: Jul, 2003

Re: How Much Profit is Enough? Posted: Jul 10, 2003 12:55 PM
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Also, if you take a look at the poverty index:

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2002/en/indicator/indicator.cfm?File=indic_3 01_2_2.html

You'll see that USA is the worst OECD country in this matter.

This document seems like total propaganda to me. It rates things such as "also capturing social exclusion" whatever that is. It also refers to a "technical note 1" that I can't find. However, looking at the data, the main column for poverty is labeled "50% of median income". So, they are defining poverty not as an absolute measurement but relative to the rich in the society. This is ludicrous. If a country has 1,000,000 with 500,000 making $1 billion a year and 500,000 making only $1 million, the millionaires would be labeled poor.

Poverty should be measured in absolute terms. There is a very good book regarding this, "The Myth of Rich and Poor" (Cos and Alm ISBN 0465047831).

Steve Holden

Posts: 42
Nickname: holdenweb
Registered: Apr, 2003

Re: How Much Profit is Enough? Posted: Jul 10, 2003 1:02 PM
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SH: To place capitalism and totalitarianism at opposite poles ... suggests that you think capitalism protects us from totalitarianism.

PK: Yes, free markets and unfree markets are inherently at opposite poles. I don't see how you can possibly dispute this.

This is pathetic. You are assuming, without proof or reason, that capitalism is a free market and that totalitarianism is an unfree market. If you don't understand the concept of orthogonality it's not going to be possible to have a sensible discussion.

PK: Compared to North America, Europe is a cultural and economic backwater, a pathetic self-opiniated geriatric rashly resting on its 200 year-old laurels. Hence the EU and slide ever leftwards in its politics. And the left, as always, remain masters of propaganda and spin : there are few more shallow, arrogant and biased loony-left news agences as Britain's BBC for example.

And you, sir, reveal yourself as an ill-informed and self-deluding bigot who has clearly never visited any major European nation. The United States' history may (ignoring the disenfranchised indigenous people) begin 200 years ago but Europe has cultures over two thousand years old, which three hundred years ago were developed enough to perform the disenfranchisement.

I am extremely glad you are not typical of the Americans I meet in daily life. This coversation is over.

Peter Kidson

Posts: 15
Nickname: peterkid
Registered: Jun, 2003

Re: How Much Profit is Enough? Posted: Jul 10, 2003 1:07 PM
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> It seems you're sure of that USA is the most advanced
> society in the world. Maybe you could take a look at the
> UN human development index:
> http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2002/en/indicator/indica
> or.cfm?File=indic_283_1_1.html

The UN is itself a very biased, backward and deeply corrupt organisation. Its word counts for nothing.


> huge problems like poverty, AIDS, environmental issues
> won't be solved by big corporations and less rules, but
> could be by governments (if they were really people
> representative) and fair rules.

Poverty is ~caused~ by governments. The cure for it is less government, not more.

Government is based on force and is thus inherently unfair. At best all that happens is that the majority use this force to oppress minorities.

> do you
> think it is fair that people are dying of AIDS in third
> world countries because they are not allowed to produce
> generic medication to protect the profit of the big
> pharmaceutical corporations?


Yes. These corporations spent a lot of money developing these drugs. If they cannot charge for their work (which includes their ideas), they won't bother developing any new ideas. Yes, stealing their ideas would help the current aids victims, but when the next killer disease comes along noone is going to want to risk money on developing drugs for it.

The best answer is for those who want to help the aids victims to buy the drugs legitimately.

Peter Kidson

Posts: 15
Nickname: peterkid
Registered: Jun, 2003

Re: How Much Profit is Enough? Posted: Jul 10, 2003 1:39 PM
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SH: [i> You are assuming, without proof or reason, that capitalism is a free market and that totalitarianism is an unfree market. ... orthogonality ...[/i]

You are hoping for orthogonality where none exists, and ignoring the logic. Try and explain how a government can have total control over people if markets are free, or how people can control their own lives if markets are not free.


you, sir, reveal yourself as an ill-informed and self-deluding bigot who has clearly never visited any major European nation.

I have lived in and around the backwater of London for the last 12 years. And you, sir, appear to be reduced to ad hominems.

Europe has cultures over two thousand years old, which three hundred years ago were developed enough to perform the .

I take it you mean enfranchisement, not disenfranchisement. Yes, you'd never say it now, but Europe was once great.


I am extremely glad you are not typical of the Americans I meet in daily life.

Hardly surprising. I am not American.


This coversation is over.

Was it something I said?

Tor

Posts: 5
Nickname: ext
Registered: Jul, 2003

Re: How Much Profit is Enough? Posted: Jul 11, 2003 5:59 AM
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>* I call myself a "socialist libertarian" to indicate what I >consider to be a dynamic balance.
>
>What you are is an Oxymoron.

Many would argue that point. See, for example, http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/faq.html#libandleft which is part of the faq for http://www.politicalcompass.org/, which seems to be a rather pertinent site considering the course of discussion on this thread. Note: If you are interested in seeing how the political compass characterizes your own views, you would be better served by going to the main page first before reading the faq.

Peter Kidson

Posts: 15
Nickname: peterkid
Registered: Jun, 2003

Re: How Much Profit is Enough? Posted: Jul 11, 2003 8:53 AM
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A> I call myself a "socialist libertarian"

B> What you are is an Oxymoron.

C> Many would argue that point.

Well - why not have a go then?

I would say "socialist libertarian" is a contradiction in terms - you can either
(a) make people free, or
(b) you could make them fund huge socialist programs and impose political correctness on them

Basic logic says you can't do both at the same time.

oswaldosalcedo

Posts: 1
Nickname: oswaldo
Registered: Sep, 2005

Re: How Much Profit is Enough? Posted: Sep 12, 2005 1:37 PM
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dear sir (steven holden)
you are deadly wrong.

in my country (venezuela) we have a socialist president,he is taking industries,land, anything to the goverment,indiscriminately; now, i have fear for my country.
you have theoretical ideas,but i live in a country that is going socialist.

pd:please excuse my english.

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