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Bill Venners: You also said in your ten top tips: "Don't focus too much on tools. Tools change. Algorithms and basic fundamentals don't." What did you mean by that?
Yukihiro Matsumoto: That was partly about focusing on humans instead of machines. Humans change very slowly, but systems change rapidly. 100 years ago, people were mostly the same as they are in the present time. 100 years ago we had no computers. 50 years ago we had computers, but they were very primitive. 20 years from now, I can't imagine how computers will be. But I can imagine how people 20 years from now will think.
Another example is mathematics. Mathematics has a very long history. It's a very mature science, but computer science is not. So it's good to retrieve ideas from mathematics.
Tools change very easily as time passes. If you focus too much on present-day tools, your efforts will give you only short-term returns. If you want benefits that will endure, you need to focus more on fundamentals. Focus on mathematics and human psychology. Focus on established sciences and established ways of thinking.
Bill Venners: You also mentioned in your ten top tips: "Be lazy. Machines should serve human beings. Often programmers serve machines unconsciously. Let machines serve you. Do everything you can to allow yourself to be lazy." Why should I try to be lazy?
Yukihiro Matsumoto: You want to be lazy. You want to do anything to reduce your work. I work hard to reduce my work, to be lazy.
Bill Venners: I believe that.
Yukihiro Matsumoto: I work very eagerly to be lazy.
Bill Venners: You also mentioned in your ten top tips: "Be nice to others. Consider interface first: man-to-man, man-to-machine, and machine-to-machine. And again remember the human factor is important." What do you mean by, "consider interface first?"
Yukihiro Matsumoto: Interface is everything that we see as a user. If my computer is doing very complex things inside, but that complexity doesn't show up on the surface, I don't care. I don't care if the computer works hard on the inside or not. I just want the right result presented in a good manner. So that means the interface is everything, for a plain computer user at least, when they are using a computer. That's why we need to focus on interface.
Some software people—like weather forecasters, the number crunchers—feel that the inside matters most, but they are a very limited field of computer science. Most programmers need to focus on the surface, the interface, because that's the most important thing.
Bill Venners: You also mentioned machine-to-machine interfaces, so are you just talking about interfaces for users or also for machines?
Yukihiro Matsumoto: It's not just user interfaces. When machines are talking to each other via a protocol, they don't care how the other is implemented on the inside. The important thing is the proper output getting passed correctly via the proper protocol. That's what matters.
If you have a good interface on your system, and a budget of money and time, you can work on your system. If your system has bugs or is too slow, you can improve it. But if your system has a bad interface, you basically have nothing. It won't matter if it is a work of the highest craftsmanship on the inside. If your system has a bad interface, no one will use it. So the interface or surface of the system, whether to users or other machines, is very important.
Come back Monday, January 5 for part III of a conversation with Ward Cunningham. If you'd like to receive a brief weekly email announcing new articles at Artima.com, please subscribe to the Artima Newsletter.
Ruby in a Nutshell, by Yukihiro Matsumoto,
is available on Amazon.com at:
Programming Ruby: A Pragmatic Programmer's Guide, by Dave Thomas and Andy Hunt,
is available on Amazon.com at:
The Ruby Programming Language, an introduction by Yukihiro Matsumoto:
An Interview with the Creator of Ruby, by Bruce Stewart:
CIPS Connections interview with Ruby Create Y. Matsumoto, by S. Ibaraki: